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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

759 replies

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa · 23/09/2013 23:23

Anybody see this? It was just horrific. I really, really hope it reached the right audience: punters and their defenders. I doubt it, but I hope so Sad

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BuffytheAppleBobber · 21/10/2013 09:35

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2tired4internets · 21/10/2013 10:05

The "You ladies don't understand Mysterious Male Sexuality" comments from Buntress would be really funny if the thread was more lighthearted and not about abuse in prostitution.

Grennie · 21/10/2013 10:09

I agree with Catherine MacKinnon that rape is about power and violence to the women being raped or prostituted. But to the men it is about power and sex.

inwinoweritas · 21/10/2013 14:51

Greenie
You might agree with McKinnon-that is an article of your faith- but as I demonstrate upthread your so-called" facts " about prostitution are wrong. It is a question of your believe not evidence for you and your radfem chums

Grennie · 21/10/2013 15:53

No, not an article of faith. Faith implies belief without analysis. I do not agree with everything every radical feminist author has said. I analyse their argument and look at the evidence they present, and decide whether I agree with it or not.

And radfem isn 't an insult you know.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa · 21/10/2013 15:55

This thread has over 400 posts and buntress selects bits from 3 of the latest as evidence we are all talking bollocks. Why not dissect winos posts with his personal assertions presented as truth and discredited studies and weird obsession with othering of street prostitutes.

And wino I and others have asked you lots of questions you have ignored.

I'll just try once more...

How would you protect street prostitutes?

Do you think your best case scenario of 4% of indoor prostitutes raped is acceptable?

What mindset do you think punters have regarding prostitutes and how this translates to other women in their life.

Do you use prostitutes?

Typing with a feeding ds...sorry if not very eloquent!

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2tired4internets · 21/10/2013 15:56

Oh hello inwinoweritas have you been to King's Cross and gathered some experience as someone else suggested yet?

BuffytheAppleBobber · 21/10/2013 15:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inwinoweritas · 21/10/2013 16:36

Another for the "cut out and keep" series on prohibitionist lies around prostitution as collated by Grennie, this time on the 90% want out statistic

What is the claim? A global study of prostitution found that 9 out of 10 women in prostitution would like to exit if they could (Farley, 2003here).

What is the source of the claim? This claim (citing Farley 1993) is often made in the prohibitionist literature-the objective is doubtless to demonstrate that prostitution is so awful that the vast majority want to leave (some prohibitionists add “immediately” or say “escape”)

Comment:
Two problems characterize the generalization that the large majority of women wish to “escape” prostitution. The first concerns the generalization of findings about the experiences of some of the most marginalized street prostitutes to prostitution as a whole. The second concerns the translation of a respondent’s desire to “leave” prostitution – the relatively neutral term that appears to have been used on the Farley questionnaire – into a desire to “escape” it, a term that better fits prohibitionist rhetoric, which treats all prostitution as “sexual slavery.” Because Farley refuses to release her research instruments, it is difficult to ascertain exactly how the question about “leaving” was asked. For example, while some people may wish to leave prostitution, they may nevertheless prefer prostitution to the low paid “shit work” that may be their only alternative, from which prostitution represents "escape," the least-bad alternative to minimum-wage manual or service work, prostitution may be their preferred option because of the relative autonomy and better pay it affords.

The window of opportunity for a person to engage in sex work may also have something to do with their desire to move on. Like some other forms of work, the earning potential of adults who sell sex declines with age. Survey samples indicate that the majority of street sex workers are between 16 and 26 years of age in which case decreasing earning power may partly explain a person’s desire to “leave” prostitution at some point. The same may be true of men and women working in low-paid agricultural work, manufacturing, and other low-paid service jobs where work experience – time on the job – does not usually increase the rate at which they are paid. To say that people make a “choice” to do any of these jobs does not necessarily mean they are “happy hookers” or happy labourers, although some of them may be-they are choosing between alternatives that are open to them.

What is the truth?

A survey of sexworkers (mostly in legal brothels) in Victoria Australia in 1996 (Pyett et al 1996 Who works in the sex industry in Australia? a profile of female prostitutes in Australia Aust N Z J Public Health 1996; 20: 431-3 here found (p42) that ^about two-thirds (65 per cent) saw themselves staying in sex work for between six months and two years,
while 14 per cent saw themselves staying for five years or more, 8 per cent for only a month and 13 per cent did not know. Nearly half the women (45 per cent) said they would change their occupation if they could, 29 per cent said they would not and 26 per cent did not know^

In 2007 a survey in Queensland Australia survey the question asked (Seib C 2007 Health, well - being and sexual violence among female sex workers: A comparative study here Q95 p190 Right now would you like to leave the sex industry? 33% said they would ( a higher proportion of street workers wished to leave). The same survey reported that 63% agreed with the statement If I had to do it again I’d definitely choose a job like I had now (p117-118) and over 70% were satisfied or very satisfied with their job, a higher level of satisfaction then a sample of psychiatric nurses. Overall, the sex workers reported roughly equivalent job satisfaction to Australian women (p iii).

A survey in 2008 of those working in brothels in Victoria Australia Groves J et al. Sex workers working within a legalised industry: Their side of the story Sex Transm Infect 2008;84:393–4 . here notes The findings of this study indicate that women working in licensed Victorian brothels come from a diverse range of backgrounds and circumstances and hold varying attitudes towards working in the sex industry. Many women have actively chosen this occupation based on the financial rewards and flexibility it offers. Like many other women, these women are pursuing further education or training, supporting families, or striving to reach financial goals. Many of these women do not express a desire to leave the sex industry. infact 47% expressed a desire to leave the industry at some stage (table 1 p394)

A report looking at prostitution in New Zealand published in 2008 ( Report of the prostitution Law review committe of the operation of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003 here showed (table 13 p 65) that only 20% of sex workers intended to quit within a year. The researchers comment (p 65) Most of the participants in the qualitative interviews also expressed some uncertainty about their expected length of stay in the industry. Younger participants who worked in the managed sector (i.e. brothel or escort) tended to describe working to a plan, such as working to stay overseas...Few street-based workers discussed how long they would remain in the sex industry. Street -based workers who did, described leaving when they could turn their life around, such as when they could get on a drug rehabilitation programme.

A large survey in Denmark published in 2011 ( Prostitution i Danmark here) found that prostitutes when asked whether they had considered stopping selling sex in the next year 55% overall said no ( fig. 11.1 p 242), the highest proportion wishing to quit were street prostitutes ( 94% wishing to leave within a year) the lowest were brothel prostitutes where one third wished to leave in a year.

Conclusion:
The papers referenced above show that the claim that 9 out of 10 women would leave sex work if they could, is an oversimplification. Probably no prostitute wants to work for ever, but as shown above only minority of indoor workers (who after all are the majority of prostitutes) want to leave immediately or within a year. The data produced by Farley is more in line with surveys of street workers (and these were the majority of her sample). So we see once again the generalization by prohibitionists of the results from street work or those in desperate circumstances to represent the views of all prostitutes. It is simply not true to say that 90% want to leave-or leave immediately (not even Farley makes that claim).

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/10/2013 16:46

The whole feminist anti-prostitution (and anti-porn) argument is based on a female view of what men think and feel.

It is not. It is about women (or certain groups of women in society) being set aside as the sex class - to be raped, demeaned, dehumanised purely because men feel entitled to pay to fuck them.

WhentheRed · 21/10/2013 17:19

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YouMakeMeWannaLaLa · 21/10/2013 17:25

And yet again ignores direct questions...bizarre.

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inwinoweritas · 21/10/2013 17:28

LaLa
I replied at length upthread about the protection of street sex workers –I discussed the situation in OZ at length and suggested managed zones might be part of the answer. Don’t keep asking the same question if you cannot be bothered to read the answer

No-no rape is acceptable as I have said countless times on this and the ~IM thread

I don’t think the mind-set of most punters differs from that of the average man since that is what they are. I don’t think they are misogynists on the whole although that is what some rad fems would like to paint them (Dworkin When men use women in prostitution, they are expressing a pure hatred for the female body speech at a symposium entitled "Prostitution: From Academia to Activism," sponsored by the Michigan Journal of Gender and Law at the University of Michigan Law School, October 31, 1992.) Nor do I think they harbour rape myths. There might be a tiny minority who do-or feel humiliated that they are paying for sex and take it out on the women but the vast majority-as prostitutes often say are pretty ordinary blokes

No I don’t use prostitutes but what difference would it make if I did?

Buffy

I replied AT LENGTH to your consent and organ post-read my post why don’t you? I think what you want me to say is that consent trumps in all circumstances. It depends-if an person wants to be killed and eaten and gives his consent (as happened in Germany) I would say consent does not trump, but if a guy of sound mind wants his dick nailed to a board (a case in the UK) it was found his consent did.

In prostitution in most cases the prostitute does give her consent-the consent may be constrained-she might be desperate for a fix-but usually the deal is sex for money. And its not rape as radfems like to claim-even if the woman may not desire her client I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire - Robin Morgan "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going too Far," 1974. It’s a commercial exchange

I was probably a bit flip upthread when I said I don’t fancy men-what I meant is that I am heterosexual-as are most working girls who will see mainly male clients and only see women as part of a couple. Probably most prostitutes do not fancy their clients but fancy their money.

However there are exceptions Kontula A (2008) The sex worker and her pleaasure Current Sociology 2008 56: 605 here a small scale study of indoor workers in Finland, showed that the general assumption that sexworkers never enjoy the sex is untrue.

In 2008 a very large scale survey in New Zealand(almost a third of the estimated number of sex workers in the country responded) here
asked sex workers what was the reason for staying in the sex industry a surprising proportion 39% said they enjoyed the sex (table 15 p68)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/10/2013 17:33

Just an academic interest, then wino? Well I don't know know about anyone else - but I'm convinced Grin

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa · 21/10/2013 18:57

No I don’t use prostitutes but what difference would it make if I did?

It might explain why you are so very defensive of prostitution and dismissive of the huge amount of suffering evidenced by your own surveys.

I don’t think the mind-set of most punters differs from that of the average man since that is what they are

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FloraFox · 21/10/2013 19:00

Again we have wino showing us he does not understand the meaning and purpose of evidence.

What are the facts or assertions you think your evidence proves or supports (even if we accepted it as credible and reliable, which I don't)? How is your evidence relevant to the issue of whether prostitution should be decriminalised?

If your assertion is that Melissa Farley and other abolitionists are using wrong statistics, so what? This has no relevance in and of itself.

If your assertion is that legalisation of prostitution makes women safe, your statistics on their face show that it does not work. The acceptable proportion of women who will not safer is a political issue which cannot be proven by evidence.

If your assertion is that women in prostitution are exercising agency, your evidence (a) deals only with a very narrow definition of agency and (b) acknowledges that there are some women in prostitution who do not exercise agency. The issue of the value of consent as a factor in determining whether something should be illegal or not is a political decision that cannot be proven by evidence.

The issue of whether sexual exploitation of women by men is misogynistic is a political issue which cannot be proven by evidence.

You are not even consistent in your obsessive trainspotterish approach to applying statistical analysis (badly) to women in prostitution. Your posts are peppered with your assumptions and myths about women in prostitution - that they are just more relaxed about sex, you suspect they prefer to be independent contractors.

Your posts are, however, evidence that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the purpose of evidence and how it is used to support ideological and political matters. They are evidence that you understand neither credibility, reliability nor relevance.

WhentheRed · 21/10/2013 22:29

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Beachcomber · 21/10/2013 22:50

Wino. What is your point? Can you answer that in a couple of concise sentences?

Because where I'm reading from, it just sounds like you are saying that prostitution is okay dokey because men want entitled fucks and they are able to find women who consent to being entitledly fucked. End of analysis.

inwinoweritas · 22/10/2013 00:22

My point is that prohibitionists distort the facts to bolster their case. My point is that those who like flora think that no one can choose to prostitute are wrong. My point is that few are coerced , drugged or forced by poverty into prostitution so you are wrong-my point is that those who claim the happy hooker is a myth (or a tiny minority) are wrong. Minnehaha spoke from her 20 years of experience and the facts back her up. She is right and you are wrong-no wonder she is fed up with feminists trying to tell her how it is when she who knows,has her existence denied and the facts back her up

I know many of you have objections to prostitution, believe that there can be no equality while it exists-those objections are political and that's ok. You are entitled to hold those views what you are not entitled to do is distort the facts to make your case. What I am doing is showing up this distortion as the misrepresentation that it is

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 22/10/2013 00:35

wino, as has been pointed out time and time again, the studies you point us to are not objective or factual either. Posters here have they are biased, use dubious methodology and written by those with a vested interest in the sex industry (IUSW and so on) -in order to bolster the case for legalisation. In one case on the IM thread, beach pointed out that it (I think it was the Met study) didn't even draw the conclusion you claimed it did.

You are hoist by your own petard, as it were.

FloraFox · 22/10/2013 00:47

Oh dear, comprehension fail wino. I did not say no-one could choose to prostitute. I said your endless stats did not establish any single person who did choose it absent coercion, abuse (past or present), mental health problems, addiction or poverty. I also said that if such women do exist, I do not value that choice above the experience of women who are suffering in prostitution. I don't care whether your facts are better than some other fact (as I said on the other thread) because even your facts are unacceptable. You are simply quibbling about percentages and not managing that very well.

Minnehaha is an anonymous person behind a computer screen. If you think his or her statements have any evidentiary value... well, we already know your difficult grasping concepts of evidence.

What you are doing is showing how the pimp lobby uses dubious methodology and statistics to derail discussions of prostitution and how it affects women, to distract women from analysis and critical thinking of political matters.

Beachcomber · 22/10/2013 07:36

But if anyone is distorting "facts" by which I take it you mean studies, it is you wino.

You also seem unable to discuss prostitution other than in terms of statistics. Perhaps because you are a man, and therefore have no framework with which to empathize with women having sex they don't want with men they do not desire. Like I said, sell your arse to all comers for a while and I expect you will gain better understanding than you have currently with all your studies (none of which show prostitution to be harmless for women).

Why are you so invested in arguing for others to be made sexually available to anyone who fancies an entitled fuck?

Beachcomber · 22/10/2013 08:13

And thanks for mansplaining that I am entitled to object to prostitution on political grounds, wino Hmm .

Gee thanks for allowing the laydeez to Hold Opinions.

The institution of prostitution, as it exists within male dominated society and the binary sexual hierarchy, is a human rights travesty.

Because the institution of prostitution is not the happy hooker. The institution of prostitution is pimping, trafficking, child abuse, exploitation, violent, dangerous, abusive, risky, rapey, predatory, entwined with organized crime and (this is the important bit, concentrate now) universally gendered .

It is intellectually dishonest to talk about prostitution in terms of the happy hooker, and the happy hooker only. It is also either stupid or extremely cynical. Your argument totally ignores most prostituted persons (especially those in countries like India, Thailand, South Africa, etc.). Your argument fails utterly to address the undeniably gendered paradigm of prostitution. In fact you don't really have an argument other than "some women say they don't mind consenting to entitled fucks."

(And feminists who are against prostitution call themselves abolitionists not prohibitionists. The difference is important and maybe one you should think about. Calling us prohibitionists speaks volumes - I wonder if you can figure out why...)

Beachcomber · 22/10/2013 09:47

And your clinging to Minnie's testimony as some sort of universal truth also speaks volumes. I'm glad that Minnie's experience of prostitution is an entirely positive one. But that doesn't make Minnie representative - it makes her lucky (apologies to you Minnie for speaking about you in the third person.)

I also know a lot of prostituted persons (mostly women and transpeople) because I volunteer at a drop in centre for the prostituted. None of them are happy hookers. Go figure...

I have very rarely come across a prostituted person who does not have someone living off their earnings (most often a man). Nearly all the people I meet at the centre have a history of abuse and or homelessness. They have all experienced poverty and the majority have substance issues. When we don't see a regular for a while we worry that they have been murdered, committed suicide, have been imprisoned or displaced by their pump/boyfriend or died of an overdose.

You should visit a place like that sometime.

inwinoweritas · 22/10/2013 10:51

Ahh the representative argument. The only way to know what is "representative" is a proper survey. Random surveys are not possible with hidden populations like prostitutes so the next best thing is purposive sampling ( so you do a proper estimate of the proportion of the population of prostitutes in each sector ( street, brothel, flats or outcall escorts). You then survey each category in depth, present the results for each separately and ( to get an overall picture weight each category to get the overall estimate). You then can tell what is a representative experience ( or as close as it is possible to get- the methodology and caveats are explained in the Danish and nz reports)

I am not "clinging" to what Minnie said-her views are echoed by many sex workers who are fed up with feminists telling them they are victims, their clients are vile misogynist rapists and that they have been coerced into their work by abusive pimps .

I am sure there are some as you describe whose situation is grim and if you are down among them it is hard to see the overall picture. But they are not representative or the majority as survey after survey have pointed out. And before you start the knee jerk that I am dismissing them or don't care -I do, but equally you have to realise try are the minority experience