Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

Cisco, there are many different statistics, and I have heard that the rates of female to male domestic violence vary anything between 40% and 0.2%. It varies the most according to the number of incidents or the number of victims (so one man assaulted once and one woman assaulted 9 times can count as a 50:50 split or 1:9, depending on whether you count the person involved or the number of attacks).

But there has never once been a survey that came up with a 50:50 split. So women are always shown as the larger proportion of the victims. No matter which statistic is used, women are the main victims. How can you say that that isn't due to a society that sees women as being less in some way? How can a society that has those figures year after year, NOT count as being a society that hates women? Attacking your partner is almost always an act of hatred (except for the very few times when a victim cracks and retaliates). The figures are utterly consistent in one thing. Women are victims more than men. And not enough is being done to change that. Women are vulnerable in a way that men aren't.

SF - specifically what issues?

I'm honestly not goading, just genuinely interested in your views and how you define feminism.

2 women a week are killed by their male partners.

"I think it is done to both genders, by both genders. Moreso to women? Possibly. And as part of fixing it, they could stop wearing skimpy outfits, or posing with their tits out, or supporting bimbo stereotypes. As part of, mind, this wont fix everything. Get Jordan and all those reality TV arseholes on here and tell them I said so." Really? So it is only possibly done more to women yet you only cite women as being the problem and they are the ones who should cover up? Big contradiction there. In addition, the market for objectifying women is demand led i.e. by men. How about they change their attitudes and start treating women as human beings with feelings and all. Not too much to ask is it?

So stating facts, stating what happens to women everyday is "bandied about like top trumps". It isn't feminists who 'bandy' around stuff. It is those who are denying women's reality.

"I think they have to abandon any semblance of a normal family life though. In short, they have to do what men have always done." Why? Because what men are and do is the default. women are expected to fit in around men, and as you so effectively say, be like men. Why not look at the whole system and instead of having it geared up for men with no childcare responsibilities, how about setting up workplaces that enable all to work effectively in them?

"As Nietzche said, the are no facts, only interpretations. Or something " Yeah thanks for making light of male violence against women there. I am pretty certain if it were happening to you it wouldn't be so fucking funny.

SF - please could you say what issues you advocate and campaign for your boys and men on?

I have a blog, am in the process of compiling a repository of links for another blog. These are private currently. I'm compiling a repository because I get fed up of being asked to 'link please'! But I would like anyone to be able to access the links, so it's like a library for all! I have about 2000 links in my bookmarks bar, so I'm shifting them over.

This is one, and it's in response to curlews concern over my 'gunning for boys' comment. It's in the US, but very clear parallels can be drawn with the UK:

ideas.time.com/2013/08/19/school-has-become-too-hostile-to-boys/?hpt=hp_t3

I have signed various e-petitions, the last one was to include boys in the HPV vaccine. I support various groups on Facebook, blogs, financial support very occasionally (as I'm skint). I discuss boys issues in RL etc..

So I'm not an 'out there' soapboxer, but that might change when the boys are older, not sure.

I'm not anyone to bother about much, truly. But I do appreciate being able to speak fairly freely on here (despite many trying to shut me down, I hasten to add).

'SF - specifically what issues?'

Well currently, the feminisation of the school system (see link above). The high suicide rate for men and boys, obviously that's a concern for me, the attack on male sexuality etc..

that article is about America isn't it? American schools in a country where firearms are seen as 'Normal'?

That kind of gun toting behaviour is typical boy behaviour according to the author. I don't really see anything typical about it. Yes - boys are often socialised to be 'into' guns but it's not a default. Plus I don't think it is schools that are making boys struggle in education, there are so many more factors in all childrens lives which make staying on in education seem like a pointless waste of time. This can happen to girls too, don't you think?

'Yes - boys are often socialised to be 'into' guns but it's not a default.'

How do you know this?

because it makes no sense that anyone would default to gun play if guns are not on their radar.

I completely agree with you that boys should have the HPV vaccination - a male friend of mine is going through chemo right now due to cancer caused by it, so the more it can be stopped the better. And the high suicide rate of young men is very tragic and something that needs to be addressed - but these problems are not caused by feminism.

Do you think that they are?

You're article sounds like some USA schools may be going a bit far in trying to tackle their national problem of gun culture and boys shooting up their schools. But again, this is not a problem caused by feminism - do you think that it is?

I don't understand how stopping children playing with guns is damaging to them. Particularly in America, where gun culture is a very different animal to this country. And I certainly haven't seen much evidence of feminization of schools here. In fact a few years ago there was a parental outcry when the Head tried to restrict football on the playground to a designated quarter because the boys were taking over the whole space, pushing the girls and non footballing boys to the margins. The Head was forced to retract and give half the space over to football.

Suicide of men and boys is a serious concern. This, however, is an are where demolishing the patriarchy could be beneficial to men- allowing themselves to be more "female" in asking for help and for medical treatment would make a huge difference. And suicide of men and boys in custody is a a big issue. And there are more men and boys in custody- because they commit more crimes,

Not sure what you mean by "the attack on male sexuality"

However, I don't understand why feminism is responsible for any of this?

I advocate equally on behalf of my son and my daughters. I observe that my son is very lazy and my daughters are very hard workers. Given that there is no way I would expect my son to do better in life than my daughters. Unfortunately my son appears to land on his feet constantly with a minimum of effort, whilst my daughters work very hard for their results. I feel that my son expects things to happen for him with minimum effort nonetheless. I have never knowingly enabled this or encouraged it. It looks as though he might do as well as his sisters in the long-term.

I do not feel that my daughters or his female classmates working harder than my son in any way disadvantages him. My husband works hard and achieves well in his chosen profession. I do not feel that he suffers any anti-man bias in work. In fact men outnumber women by quite some way in his work (research science).

I find it astonishing that people think we have made a seamless and complete leap to equality from the retrograde sexism of the postwar period. Hell even in the 1980s we put up with some breathtaking things. A friend make student films in the late 80s and I have to watch them from behind a cushion now, whilst remembering that we didn't in any way think there was anything wrong with them at the time. That was a scant 25 years ago. How can we possibly have achieved equality (and possibly slightly gone "too far in the other direction" as some contend) in one single generation?

Oh, and I only didn't talk about the HPV vaccine for boys because I don't know enough about it. If it's considered medically a good idea for boys, of course they should be offered it. How is that a feminist issue?

'I am a feminist. Not a radical feminist. A feminist.'

Unfortunately, usage has now substantially redefined 'feminism' to mean radical feminism. This stems in part from the radicals themselves. If a woman doesn't buy into their core belief (women are massively oppressed by misogyny, patriarchy, objectification and privilege) she is told she is not a real feminist. Most women implicitly now accept this definition when they say they are not feminists, because they don't wish to be associated with the extremists.

Men who don't accept that women are massively oppressed by misogyny, patriarchy, objectification and privilege are called MRA's. So far this widened definition hasn't caught on.

Do you, curlew, believe women are massively oppressed by misogyny, patriarchy, objectification and privilege?

People who want to discredit a group often attempt to do it by associating the more moderate members of that perceived group with the most extreme ones with the most radical and "dangerous" ideas. See the way some people seem to lump all Muslims in with Al Quaeda.

"Do you, curlew, believe women are massively oppressed by misogyny, patriarchy, objectification and privilege?"

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

Oh, I don't know, Buffy. Maybe ago meant to say MRA's handmaidens.......