Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

And as I have said several times, there is a difference between legislation (which was fought against at every stage, by the way) and what actually happens.

kareningalasmith.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

That was actually very good, most of the articles similar to that aren't very good and I glaze over in tedium in a matter of minutes, but I actually read that to the end in interest.

'But I would like for any woman who does want to be a CEO to have the same chance to get there as any man.'

I believe 100% that they do. Companies are under pressure to hire more women, so actually, I think that have more of a chance.

Buffy, Lemonmuffin and I both said that we, and the women we know, so not just 'I'.

'If discrimination no longer existed, we wouldn't need all women short lists and similar policies.'........nothing to do with discrimination, women don't want these jobs, because of the hours and time away from family.

Cisco, just because society gives some benefits to women, it doesn't't logically follow that women have the same benefits as me. So we get mat leave, great, but we're not 51% of govt, or 51% of company bosses, or 51% of holding the wealth. Men aren't 49% of the child carers and caring for the elderly etc.

So we live in a society that is structurally balanced in favor of men, which mainly benefits men over women, ie it is woman hating.because the only reason to structurally ensure that women don't have equal access to decision making and wealth and power is because there is the belief that women are somehow less deserving of those things than men.

And saying that society hates women is not the same as saying that every single man hates women. Men are taller than women does n to mean that every single man is taller than every single woman, it is a statement talking about averages across a large population. The two things aren't the same.

Buffy, no I don't want to silence anyone, you included. That is why I want to discuss politely, rather than read, think to myself "ha, tough titty, stop whining", and carry on enjoying my superiority (only joking).

By the same token, other women haven't experienced the hatred. They have said so, right here. And I know you don't want to silence them. So where does that leave us? Does this culture only hate some women? Because I guess you can't speak for all, which is what Ms Penny seems to want to do. The alternative is that some women are just not aware enough, not smart enough or just are in denial. And that smacks more of a religion to me than a political philosophy.

not aware enough
not smart enough
just are in denial
just don't care

I think that's pretty much a good summary to be honest.

Just because a person is not aware/not educated/in denial/don't care... doesn't mean it's not still an issue.

Cisco- do you think men and women have complete equality of opportunity in the UK?

Do you think that the sexual objectification of women in the press and other media is a myth?

Do you think that perpetrators of domestic violence are men and women equally?

Do you think there is nothing stopping a woman rising to the top except her drive to get there?

Hate is a very strong word. Feminism has diluted it's meaning, along with misogyny. Chuck words around enough and they become meaningless.

Like"gunning for your sons?"

What did you mean?

you know disciplines like politics and sociology deal with generalities? That doesn't mean there are no exceptions. It does mean that some things are true in general, for the majority, on average, most of the time.

It is the case that men kill 2 women a week. It is true that men sexually abuse 1 in 4 women. Those things are still true even if you don't know any women it has happened to.

SF - Some women have no interest in being a CEO, or financially independent, or running the country, or owning property, or of being primary carer of children, house and home - does this mean we shouldn't try to change a culture that makes it difficult for those who really do?

No one here can speak for the choices and ambitions of each individual person, but I would imagine that we would all want to strive toward a culture that doesn't restrict anyone's personal ambitions based on their sex - be it a CEO or a SAHP. This is my understanding of the feminist view of equal opportunities.

I'd also like to hear your definition of feminism when you have a minute.

'I'd also like to hear your definition of feminism when you have a minute.'

Ok, but will have to be later....I need to discipline a number of unruly, stress inducing minors!

SF - well if they're little boys then into the cupboard under the stairs with them

And "gunning for my sons"

What does that mean?

Or are you conveniently suddenly too busy to explain that either?

Ok, well I've been giving this some thought whilst I've been shoveling little girls under the stairs and making the little boys watch Top Gear!

It's easier for me to discuss my issues with feminism than define it, really. I'm struggling to define it.

You seem very perturbed by my off the cuff comment about gunning for my sons curlew. I mean that feminists appear to be attacking my sons psychologically and within society with the women=good/ men=bad model. And by feminists, I mean 'as a group', rather than individually.

I am very perturbed by it. It strikes me as a offensive thing to say.

Can you come up with some specifics about how feminists are attacking your sons?

Cisco- do you think men and women have complete equality of opportunity in the UK? Nope. I don't think all men have it, and I don't think all women have it.

Do you think that the sexual objectification of women in the press and other media is a myth? Nope. I think it is done to both genders, by both genders. Moreso to women? Possibly. And as part of fixing it, they could stop wearing skimpy outfits, or posing with their tits out, or supporting bimbo stereotypes. As part of, mind, this wont fix everything. Get Jordan and all those reality TV arseholes on here and tell them I said so.

Do you think that perpetrators of domestic violence are men and women equally? I honestly don't know. Too many contradictory statistics on here. I think when men do carry it out, it is liable to be more dangerous due to greater strength. I have a friend who is a copper, and he sees the fall-out of both. If it's 90-10, or 70-30, or 50-50, it is still too much. I think it is bandied about like top trumps when debated though.

Do you think there is nothing stopping a woman rising to the top except her drive to get there? More and more, yes. I heard Woman's Hour with 3 women CEO's on recently. They were all against quotas. I think women can make it, yes. I think they have to abandon any semblance of a normal family life though. In short, they have to do what men have always done.

As Nietzche said, the are no facts, only interpretations. Or something

Can we jut be clear, and declare interests.

I am a feminist. Not a radical feminist. A feminist.

Is anyone on here a MRA?

I advocate and campaign on behalf of my boys and men generally, so you can call me an MRA if you really want to label me, but I prefer libertarian, however not especially bothered. There are aspects of feminism that I can go with, and do include in my daily life, but way too much that I take issue with.

What do you campaign for?