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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

336 replies

curlew · 16/08/2013 16:24

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

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NicholasTeakozy · 19/08/2013 17:51

Is anyone on here a MRA?

Certainly not. I think we have enough.

On a different note, I don't think it's society that hates women, it's large sections of the media, the Heil, News International, those magazines aimed at the 'Lad' culture, those magazines like Heat, Grazia, Chat etc that really put women down, they all hate women, even those publications aimed at women. They're a part of the problem along with the men who are unwilling to stand alongside feminists.

I am not a feminist, I don't believe I can be one, but I am an ally.

CiscoKid · 19/08/2013 17:58

I am not an MRA, in response to curlew's question.

Re Neitzche, the quote was in response to something Buffy said, not violence. I screwed up my reply to here. Sorry about how it read, my bad editing.

Kickass, re measuring violence by victim's gender. My gut feeling is that men would commit more DV. Men kick off more full stop, in my RL experience. I am NOT denying male on female violence, and not belittling it. My question is more one of semantics, so perhaps it isn't important in the grand scheme, but it is with the link you make. Men commit more DV, these men must hate women, therefore men hate women. What if the same group of men are also the ones scrapping in pubs and clubs and football matches and taxi ranks and umpteen other places. What if these same men also kick shit out of other men on a regular basis? Then they are not misogynists, they are misanthropes - they hate everyone. Like I say, semantics, but what if it's true? It doesn't mean that it is acceptable. It means that your distinction that (a group of) men hate women and women alone. And I think that that is an important distinction, because I think feminism would be different if it recognised that fact.

Lastly, my comment about Jordan et al covering up. You did see that it was only part of an approach, didn't you? Good. So we have two 'sides' here - those that buy the pictures, and those that pose. Those that buy do so because they can, and because, as men, they are not being harmed directly. Selfish bastards, but it is a fact.

Those that pose are the ones being harmed. So, why have they not responded to the arguments that their actions are harmful to women as a group? From a point of self-preservation, and for the good of their fellow women, why have they not responded to 40 years of evidence and debate? Why, in fact, despite all the evidence you can present as feminists on here, does this kind of sexual presentation/objectification appear to be increasing? As a crude comparison, the level of smoking has decreased since evidence of damage to health has grown, despite massive pressure from extremely rich and powerful tobacco companies (Talking UK here). Why despite 40 years of feminist evidence, have similar inroads not been made on page 3, Heat, Nuts, Loaded etc., with those who stand to gain the most by boycotting?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 18:08

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 18:12

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curlew · 19/08/2013 18:39

"Men commit more DV, these men must hate women, therefore men hate women"

No, men commit more domestic violence, society/ the media doesn't take it particularly seriously/ courts blame the women- therefore our culture hates women.

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kim147 · 19/08/2013 18:42

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 18:51

'society/ the media doesn't take it particularly seriously'

Do you have any idea how seriously society/the media takes female on male DV? Not remotely, is the answer. In fact, men have reported that when they've experienced DV and called the police, THEY were arrested.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 19:08

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curlew · 19/08/2013 19:10

"Do you have any idea how seriously society/the media takes female on male DV? Not remotely, is the answer. In fact, men have reported that when they've experienced DV and called the police, THEY were arrested."

Of course violence should be taken seriously. Whoever commits it. But women die. 2 a week.

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curlew · 19/08/2013 19:12

"In fact, men have reported that when they've experienced DV and called the police, THEY were arrested."

I would really need some evidence for his.

Oh, and you have!'t said what you meant by "th attack on mail sexuality"

And how you feel feminists are attacking your boys.

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curlew · 19/08/2013 19:13

Male sexuality, obviously. Mail sexuality is a very weird concept.

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 19:28

'Oh, and you have!'t said what you meant by "th attack on mail sexuality"'

I don't feel that I have the eloquence to adequately convey what I mean by this (I'm serious), so I won't try, I don't think. I'll only tie myself up in knots (not in a 50 shades type way) trying to explain. In my experience, one wrong word and I'm shredded.

SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 19:29

Mail sexuality would be an easier topic!

curlew · 19/08/2013 19:31

Hang on- your're saying that you're defending your boys from feminist attacks on male sexuality, but you can't say what that means? And you expect to be taken seriously????????

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 19:33

No. That wasn't what I was saying. Re-read.

CiscoKid · 19/08/2013 19:36

Curlew said No, men commit more domestic violence, society/ the media doesn't take it particularly seriously/ courts blame the women- therefore our culture hates women.

So, if we say that when a couple split up, men aren't trusted as much as women to be a good parent, courts blame/rule against the man - would you say that this is evidence that courts (part of our society/culture, and an important part of the legislative procedure) hate men? Because I don't. I think that they have a traditional view of parenthood, and parental roles, and use this in a potentially damaging way. But I think that this can be done with an absence of hatred.

I think that this insistence on hatred is actually damaging to feminism. I think it makes it harder for people to accept the positive messages that it has for society.

TheDoctrineOfJetlag · 19/08/2013 19:44

I don't think it's to do with "tradition", It's about who is the main carer pre-split, which in the majority of cases is the mother - as a PP said, where it has been the father, the father has got a greater proportion of care. If DH and I split, he'd probably get a greater proportion if it went to court as opposed to us working it out between us.

Tradition (or patriarchy, if you prefer) drives the main carer balance, which in turn drives court decisions.

curlew · 19/08/2013 19:45

"No. That wasn't what I was saying. Re-read"

I have. Still reads like that to me.

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 19:46

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 19:47

I was saying, not that I didn't know what I meant, but that conveying what I mean in an adequate way was a challenge.

TheDoctrineOfJetlag · 19/08/2013 19:47

SF, did you read the blog JuliaScurr linked above? It would seem from that that some of the men who report DV are reporting self defence, which may be why they were arrested (perhaps as well as the partner)

I don't know if that's always the case with the arrests you mentioned but it might be part of it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 19:48

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TheDoctrineOfJetlag · 19/08/2013 19:49

Contempt might fight better actually, Buffy. Good point.

TheDoctrineOfJetlag · 19/08/2013 19:49

Fight = fit

curlew · 19/08/2013 19:59

Contempt is good. Hatred is appropriate sometimes though- look at the twitter trolls.......

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