Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

I always find the 'computer game' analogy quite good for thinking about male privilege. It's too simplistic to say that, because all men don't have have the same opportunities there is no innate male privilege. whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Is there no innate female privilege?

What do you think Sigmund? Is there?

I agree that there are certain areas of life where it is easier to be female - pursuing a career in early years childcare being a fairly uncontentious example. More emotive ones being things like custody disputes (though I would say 'easier' in the wrong word for either party in that situation). Ironically, these tend to be areas where patriarchal societal structures and assumptions disadvantage men, rather than examples of a 'female privilege'.

So no, at a structural, cultural level, no I do not believe 'female privilege' exists in the same way as 'male privilege'.

Amanda I'd not heard of that before but thanks for the link - excellent analogy that explains male privilege quite clearly.

Cisco would you argue that as not every single white person in 1960s Mississippi USA was the same as each other and therefore as not every single white person had the same opportunities and privileges - due to class, education, appearance etc - then the notion of white privilege is moot?

Bunny - Someone on here linked to it originally, but I can't remember who .

Sigmund, didn't you get the memo?

When a man is privileged, it's male privilege.
When a woman is privileged, it's benevolent sexism.

But never vice versa.

Sorry to go back to this but I also really dislike 'culture hates women'

There is no such thing as 'culture'. There are infinite varieties of cultures and subcultures, all of which are contested by members of that culture, and which usually evolve over time.

There are multiple cultures operating within the UK. Some of those hate women, I would say. Probably all of them discriminate against women, to varying degrees.

I think it's important because it dilutes the argument. You can draw a straight line between 'culture hates women' and the bland advice at the end to 'stand up to misogyny when you see it'. It assumes that all men witness the same kinds of misogyny, that they all have the same ability to confront it, that there is some unilateral solution they can all share.

For example, there seem to be a lot of crazy judges in the UK making asinine comments and rulings. What's up with that? What is wrong in legal culture? How can men stand up to that when that kind of misogyny has the force of legal opinion? How can they promote the rights of women within that system? Now compare that with other cultures -- in politics, the media, different regions and cities, different socioeconomic groups, different religious groups, etc.

That, to me, is a more helpful way of looking at things than a simple, Men: you're with us or against us.

Good point about varying cultures DreamingBohemian.
But I don't think it dilutes the simple point though. it can be done by degree within each area

Even pursuing a career in early years childcare and education (mentioned upthread) which I have done I've seen men advantaged - a young lad I worked with (but not directly) went from working in pre-school to getting a job lecturing in early years and childcare at our local college. I'm sure I have better qualifications and experience than he does.
And at my DC's school the headteacher is the only male teacher on the staff (and similar situation in many primaries in my experience)

"Sigmund, didn't you get the memo?

When a man is privileged, it's male privilege.
When a woman is privileged, it's benevolent sexism.

But never vice versa."

What does that actually mean?

Bunnylion, re your point about 1960s USA, I don't think that that is a fair comparison with UK society in 2013. There are no laws here prohibiting women from riding at the front of the bus; no men-only drinking fountains; no men-only cafes; no women-only ghettos. Our society makes it illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender or race. That was not the case back then.

So does it make the idea of blanket male privilege in 2013 UK moot? Absolutely, yes. And that is because to say that all men in all walks of like are inherently favoured for everything, even when just compared to women in the same socio-economic bracket, is wrong, in my humble opinion. There are too many variables to make that assumption.

Really like the computer game analogy - thanks amanda

Cisco- are you saying that in your opinion men and women have completely equal opportunities in the UK today? I'm not talking in terms of legislation, I'm talking about what actually happens.

As an aside, have everyone noticed that we are debating terminology and detail- the substantive point of the article has been sidestepped!

cisco There are obviously many differences in equality law from UK today and USA then.

I was giving you an example of another situation purely to examine your proposal that if a world has a number variables then we should ignore the concept of privilege.

Privilege exists across class, education and appearance. Privilege in a society is not only defined by law as you seem to be suggesting.

curlew it's a great way to avoid the issue!

The problem is that the men discussed in the article are totally unaware of the benefits they enjoy everyday - so how are they going to take it seriously and find anything more than semantics to talk about?

being blind to male privilege is a manifestation of that privilege.

insisting that women embrace your lack of awareness as the truth about their own oppression definitely makes you part of the problem.

great article thanks.

It's important to remember that the white straight male default position exists in all classes. Poor working class white straight men are lower down the pecking order than rich middle class straight men. But they are still higher up the ladder than poor working class straight women.

I am not denying that some people are more privileged in life than others. Obviously they are. I am saying that to split society in two, by genders, and then say that group A is always more privileged than B, is too simplistic. I am not dodging, arguing semantics, or ignoring what I as an individual have.

To address curlew's point - poor working class men vs women. So if there is a ladder, what makes up that ladder? Job opportunities, physical health, mental health, longevity, educational achievements, access to justice, access to medical care? Please tell me what factors in life are more important than those I have listed, and please tell me how men win out in all cases.

And I am going to re-iterate, simply to make it clear - the privilege I have in my life is not just due to my gender. It is much more complicated. That is my point.

I also think it is worth noting that we are not addressing the title of the OP, nor the article's title, and how it contradicts the content of said article (the point about hate).

Cisco, everyone on here who posts about privilege acknowledges that it is multi faceted. I'm pretty sure you've been here long enough to have seen that.

Okay, good. That is something we can agree on.

To misquote:

These days, before we talk about privilege, women are increasingly being asked to modify our language so we don?t hurt men?s feelings. Don?t say, ?Men are more privileged than women? ? that?s sexism, as bad as any sexism women ever have to handle, possibly worse. Instead, say, ?Some men are more privileged than women.? Whatever you do, don?t generalise. That?s something men do. Not all men ? just somemen.

Men as a class have privilege over and oppress (in order to maintain that privilege) women as a class. Regardless of whether individual men go out of their way to do it, unless they are actively calling people out on it, they are condoning it and become part of the problem rather than solution.

I asked some questions at 1338 re men's privilege, and men's oppression of women:

To address curlew's point - poor working class men vs women. So if there is a ladder, what makes up that ladder? Job opportunities, physical health, mental health, longevity, educational achievements, access to justice, access to medical care? Please tell me what factors in life are more important than those I have listed, and please tell me how men win out in all cases.

Let's say that such oppression of women as a class is true. Why do they not get the shitty end of the stick in all these important areas? An oppressive society would ensure, through legislation if necessary, that men had the better of all those areas.

This thread has now completely stalled. We can't take the discussion further because we have to spend the next day defining our terms. So incredibly frustrating!