Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

kim I know a lot of people who complain about some of the female writers in the DM for that reason - myself included!

I don't think that the article is perpetuating a "them and us" culture of women vs men where all women are good and all men are bad. This particular article just happens to be addressing the men - saying that even if you're a really decent guy and don't personally make the world worst for women then you should still actively challenge incidents that make up a sexist culture.

How far you go is up to the individual judgement. The article is not saying to interrogate part time working women or full time working men about their specific situations, but everyone should be conscious of the society we like in, think about it more, don't just get washed along with "that's just how things are" and when appropriate women and men should feel free to question and challenge it.

The joy over Co-op demanding "pervert pouches"...I mean, why? Why use that language? Not everyone uses that language, but I agree that language is very important.

And there is hypocrisy. Front/Loaded are PORN for PERVERTS but it's ok for men to walk around a supermarket filled with 9 foot high Rob Pattinson and Taylor Lautner shirtless. Page 3 is an abomination, but the Diet Coke man is a bit of harmless fun.
It's about degree. When a man is sexually objectified it is one facet of all the ways men are portrayed. When a woman is sexually objectified it's the dominant portrayal. Mind you, I have never heard the same people criticising Pg 3 and supporting the Diet Coke guy. (Again, heres an example of the difference in degree - there have been 2 Diet Coke guys in 30 years, and a different Page 3 girl every day for 40 years)

You try talking to most men about their experiences of pregnancy. There is no attempt to include them at any point. And before the inevitable "poor men" comments, all the men I know, know damn well that it's all about the mum. They'd just like to be included. But included how, exactly? Who is keeping them out? I can only speak form my own experiences here, but every man I know has been as included as he wanted to be. Except for the medical side of things obviously. But he has picked baby names, kicked tyres in the buggy shop, done as much as they wanted picking out little outfits etc, which tbh hasn't been much. There mates have brought them out for last nights of freedom and wetting the baby heads,( which is more than I got, for obvious reasons!) What exactly is it they feel they are missing out on? I genuinely don't know.

How many clueless man adverts do you see every day? Whether it's useless fathers (Argos, Thomas Cook) or clueless men (Yorkie, any advert involving a cleaning product), men are told they are shit every day. I can't even think of one baby product that has a dad shown on it.

Feminists hate this. It promotes keeping women on the kitchen and men out of it. Whereas feminists believe everyone is equally capable of putting powder in the washing machine or changing a nappy.

You want to see when the white male doesn't have power? Talk to a divorcee.
Or, talk to a divorced mother, who is left in the shit.
Talk to the 40% of men that make up the domestically abused.
Most of these were one - off's - still unacceptable, of course - but a different dynamic to ongoing, sustained abuse.

Or the 1 in 7 victims of rape that happens to be male. Rape Crisis proudly boasts it "campaigns continuously to raise awareness of sexual violence, its prevalence and effects and, in particular, we highlight the importance and need for appropriate, high-quality and specialised support for survivors. We challenge attitudes and press for change" but doesn't even acknowledge that male rape exists. Who the hell do they turn to?That's just inaccurate Try Rape Crisis here

Or here, dedicated male support

You can't demand inequality then act surprised that men don't want that.
That is not what is happening
Why not campaign for the changes that men could get behind? I can tell you right now, men don't want rapists to get away with it
Great
they just don't want guilt determined before a trial.
It would be great if guilt could be determined during a trial. But that is not what happens.
I'm sure most men would be happy to discuss sexual imagery in the media, but they're going to want that to include men,
Great, again
and they're probably going to want to talk about the wall of DIET / BUY / DIVORCE / CHEATER magazines that take up a third of the magazine section. Why? One thing at a time.
Why not push for better paternity leave for men? That would move the pressure away from women in the workplace. Feminists do support that strongly

Demand equality, We do
and you might just find that men and women aren't actually that far apart in their opinions. I'd like to think so. seems to be taking a while to manifest though.

You don't seem to well informed about feminism

Sorry about italics fails - hope it's clear enough

kim I completely agree with both your points, well stated.

Right, so so far on this thread we've had...

If you want men to listen you have to be less assertive and choose your words with care.

Look at how much worse women in other parts of the world have it and count yourself lucky.

I'm not from round here, I don't understand.

Men are objectified/victims too you know.

What about the women who objectify women- you're not criticising them.

Women live longer than men and girls get better A level results than boys- how can you say that it's a misogynist society while that holds true.

How can you say that there is still make privilege- there's equality legislation, isn't there?

A fair assumption. No-one's commented on my earlier comparison btw..

But can you imagine what a women from another culture would make of the word "oppression"? Sorry Kim, I don't understand what you mean by this.

Also are you suggesting that the western culture doesn't actively oppress women? Because that's not true. Maybe it isn't as bad as or as obvious as other countries but, for example, we have the same rate of rape in the UK as Delhi do.

With regards female journalists do you ever read the Liz Jones threads on here? Because they certainly blame her and women's magazines are always being blamed for poor body image. Women are always blamed for policing other women with regards how they look, what they wear how they behave. Out in RL women's behaviour is scrutinised to a much greater extent than men's. And it is significant that the newspapers and magazines are run by men because the root of this is misogyny. And that comes from men.

It isn't other women who shout at and harass women in the street, commenting on parts of their body or what they look like. It isn't women who are threatening women who have opinions with rape or calling them "ugly bitches". It isn't other women objectifying women. It isn't other women treating women as the 'sex' class. And this is why some feminists like to focus on male behaviour, because that is the root. I can't remember who said it but probably someone like MacKinnon, if men weren't sexist there would be no sexism.

With regards how far you go challenging sexism well how ever far you are comfortable with. Men can generally go further than women with that, because when men speak of sexism it is taken more seriously (just look at the adulation David Mitchell got for uttering a few words of feminism a couple of years ago or Dustin Hoffman more recently). With regards SAHM/WOHM/part-time working etc I would certainly challenge it (and have) if the man thought that childcare was women's work and not his responsibility. But if it was a couple who was just trying to do the best for their family then no. I might discuss the problems of cost of childcare, gender pay gap, women more likely to be offered part-time work, more women working in the public sector because of that etc etc. But I wouldn't challenge them (other than raise their awareness/conciousness) and make them feel bad about decisions made for practical reasons in the context of a society that pushes them towards those decisions.

I think that the point Penny was making on that is that men's voices can seem to be absent when challenging sexism. And she would like to see more of them.

"Feminists expect men to take issue with every bit of sexism etc etc they see. If not, they are an apologist, a misogynist."

I don't think feminists do, youknow. Well, this one doesn't. Hell, i don't take issue with every bit of sexism etc etc I see.

However, it would be nice if they took issue sometimes. And it would be good if they didn't say "I'll only take issue with sexism if you ask me nicely"

And if they didn't do things like saying that a life sized cardboard cut out of a shirtless Robert Pattinson ( with his trousers firmly on) looking fearlessly out at the shoppers in HMV is in any way on a a par with Jorgie from Essex cupping a naked boob with one hand and her finger in her mouth looking submissively out from under her lashes from Page 3 of a mass circulation newspaper.

Yes, that exactly curlew.

Also meant to say great post SinisterSal.

'However, it would be nice if they took issue sometimes.'

What makes you think that they don't? You aren't privy to every interaction between every male.

'And it would be good if they didn't say "I'll only take issue with sexism if you ask me nicely"'

Well I find the feminist (as a group) accusatory tone pretty riling, so God knows how I'd find it if I was a man. It doesn't surprise me that they say that, in all honesty.

"Well I find the feminist (as a group) accusatory tone pretty riling, so God knows how I'd find it if I was a man. It doesn't surprise me that they say that, in all honesty."

Could you give me some examples? People are always saying that, and, to be frank, it always seems to me that if women, to coin a phrase, express opinions that differentiate them from doormats,they get called accusatory. Because women are supposed to be submissive and placatory. And if they are not, they are automatically considered aggressive, when they are probably not being anything like as aggressive as men are every day.

"
"What makes you think that they don't? You aren't privy to every interaction between every male"

Obviously. But if it happened much, there's probably be a bit of it on the media, don't you think?

Look, I'm a woman, and I have never been called accusatory (to the best of my knowledge) in RL. I have spoken to feminists in real life, and they have been accusatory towards me. On here they have called me a misogynist etc.

It's not about women having an opinion that makes them accusatory, I've said this before, it's all about the delivery. And yes people should think about how they say things, because it makes the difference between people listening or switching off. I don't accept that men aren't considered accusatory btw, because if a man speaks to me in an accusatory tone, then he's accusatory. Ditto women.

Another thing, if 'people are always saying that', then maybe they have a point.

Btw..I wasn't saying you were accusatory. I've said that word too many times now.

'But if it happened much, there's probably be a bit of it on the media, don't you think?'

There is. I read it all the time in the Daily Mail (which I unashamedly enjoy reading btw!), I was reading some stuff today about some famous bloke saying that men who say women are unfunny should STFU. He didn't mention women that find women unfunny.

scallops I think what kim is saying is pretty clear. There is a huge variation in how women are oppressed and maltreated throughout the world, and to say simply 'culture hates women' does not reflect that, and also does not allow for variation in responses to it.

Please, do not compare what women go through in the UK to what women endure in Afghanistan. Please, really, don't. I've been there and it's a completely different world. What happens in the UK is not just 'less bad' or 'less obvious', it is an entirely different universe.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying (contra curlew) that this means women in the UK should just sit back and think themselves lucky. Obviously not! But to say that what happens in the UK and in Afghanistan all falls under the same category of oppression -- I'm sorry, but surely there must be room in your theorising for such extremes of experience. It is not just a matter of degree, they are fundamentally different manifestations of sexism.

"Please, do not compare what women go through in the UK to what women endure in Afghanistan. Please, really, don't"

I don't think anyone with half a brain cell would.

But I also don't see why the word "oppression" can't be used on a continuum. The oppression of women in western civilisation is different, qualitatively and qualitatively from that suffered by women in some other parts of the world, but it is still real.

Funny how the men on this thread and SF assume there's no solution required because there isn't a problem in the first place.

I was at a dinner party tonight and someone was regaling us with a funny story about a friend who visited a local brothel. The comments were generally about how he was a bit of a character but there was no condemnation of his behaviour. It would have been much easier to join in the conversation and laugh along with everyone but doesn't that make me complicit in condoning it ?

Yes, it was a bit tedious to point out that his behaviour was reprehensible and that the 'pretty little girl' was probably disgusted by him. After a bit of predictable eye rolling about humourless feminists, it became clear that quite a few people were disgusted by his behaviour but didn't want to comment as it was more modern, liberal or permissive to simply 'live and let live'. No one wanted to be the first to condemn his behaviour so they all appeared to be mildly amused by it and yet, many present, when given "permission" to speak out, were quite vocal in their condemnation and quite a few of the men admitted that they had just never thought about the bleaker side of prostitution.

It led to a discussion about the Everyday Sexism project and there was genuine surprise from many of the men present who were hearing for the first time in their lives about the crap that women had to put up with and a few uncomfortable admissions that their own behaviour could be seen as sexual assault or discrimination. It simply hadn't occurred to them. Maybe the discussion will mean that they'll be more aware in the future but at the very least, it raised their consciousness that there is a problem. Not life changing stuff for the men involved but certainly for some of the women present.

So yes, if you don't speak out then you are part of the problem. If you want to live in an equal, fair and just society then you don't get to abdicate personal responsibility when these principles are breached.

And playing oppression top trumps doesn't help anyone.

The root of it all, whether denying women access to education in Afghanistan or blaming a rape victim in the UK, all has the same source which is that women are deemed lesser. The practical manner in how that is expressed is different but the cause is what needs addressed.

I absolutely didn't mean to compare. And I apologise that it came across that way. But kim did imply that the UK culture didn't actively oppress and I don't think that is true. Women are oppressed by male violence all the time. I only used the example of comparing rapes in Delhi to here as it might shock people that we have that many rapes, per capita in this country. I absolutely did not intend to diminish the experiences of women in other countries and apologies for doing that. It was very badly worded by me.

Discrimination and hateful attitudes are all parts of oppression though. They limit your experiences of life. They make you change your behaviour. That's oppression.