Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

"Let's say that such oppression of women as a class is true. Why do they not get the shitty end of the stick in all these important areas? An oppressive society would ensure, through legislation if necessary, that men had the better of all those areas."

That is why the term "culture" was used- which you objected to - rather than society. Legislation is in place to produce equality. But it doesn't- because the culture of the country prevents it.

And you're not saying, surely,that women don't get the shitty end of the stick in the areas you list, are you?

Dont stall on my behalf. i'll just lurk if it helps.

I don't mind 'culture'. I just tried to define it, for clarity. Someone else said that 'a culture cannot hate women', as ours is too diverse. I agree with them.

And at the risk of stating the obvious, I listed those areas because I do believe women are at least equal in them in. Healthcare, educational achievement, longevity for starters. Does anyone disagree? I am in the UK, so that is my reference point.

Healthcare? Why?
Longevity? Isn't that mostly a lifestyle issue?
Education? Girls do marginally better than boys at school, but not at University. And it doesn't roll out into on seniority or salaries.

Are you saying that we have achieved equality?

NOt necessarily full equality in every aspect, no. I thought graduate achievement was better for women than men. I also thought that this shifted back to men post-grad. I would have to check though.

There is still a pay gap, and that is wrong. I see this as mainly down to childcare, where there is an expectation that women will drop their career first, but I think that will change and society changes. I think old-fashioned stereotypes have lead to this situation. It should change, and I think it is. Also, in the lower income groups, according to woman's hour last week, women now are the main breadwinners, although I don't know if there is a like-for-like pay gap still.

Longevity is a product of genetics, lifestyle and healthcare. A system so desperately biased against women - a culture or a class that hates them - would not allow this. It would channel resources far in favour of men until it was redressed - access to drugs, professionals, hospital beds, research etc. It doesn't - why?

I am not trolling here, by the way. I am interested in what you think, not trying to win an argument or bore anyone to death.

"Longevity is a product of genetics, lifestyle and healthcare. A system so desperately biased against women - a culture or a class that hates them - would not allow this. It would channel resources far in favour of men until it was redressed - access to drugs, professionals, hospital beds, research etc. It doesn't - why?

Because, as I have said several times already, we're not talking about legislation, or the formal structured system- we are talking about the culture. How the system actually operates. How things work on a day to day basis. What life is like for women "on the ground". How, despite education, and the legislation, women are still massively under represented in the positions of power and influence. How women are killed by violent partners regularly. How women still take on the vast majority of child care and domestic work. How women are still regularly objectified in the media........I could go on.

Then why does 'the culture' allowed the legislation to even take place? Why let women get a foot in the door? Why not subvert healthcare away from women (e.g. incentivise companies to move drug development away from breast cancer and towards prostate cancer, or baldness!)? Why not investigate root-and-branch why boys do worse at school, and rig it so that they do better than girls? If you want to take it ridiculous extremes, why not be more like the Taleban and less like Westminster? Actually, while we are stomping all over Kabul, why not just let them be with their culture - keeping women, barefoot, pregnant and illiterate? Why insist on re-instatment of female education at all over there, if there is a systematic, cultural hatred?

Re women in Parliament - massively under-represented in the UK, but not so in other European cultures. So is the UK hugely more misogynistic than the Scandis? It's partly to do with the childcare aspect - for me it's the answer to pay equality in the workplace. I said so above. It is wrong, but it is changing for the better.

The killing/DV thing - I completely agree that it is unacceptable. But feminism approaches it from the only-women-are-victims angle. Men murder. Full stop. They fight, they maim, they carry out terrible violence - some of them. Whether they kill males or females, children or adults - it is all wrong, equally wrong. This might sound extreme, but sometimes I read feminist writings, and I wonder if they could flick a switch and stop all male-on-female violence, would that suffice?

But I have probably said enough, and I suspect that we aren't going to have a meeting of minds, so unless you want me to rabbit on, I will shut up and just see what others think, or let this thread die down.

'How women still take on the vast majority of child care and domestic work'.

Isn't this a choice? I chose to have DC's and be a SAHM, the fact that I didn't have to make this choice was practically rammed down my throat by my career's advisor.

How women are still regularly objectified in the media.....

Mmm, I loathe the term 'objectification', a great many women choose 'objectification' too. It's by no means restricted to women either.

For the sake of anyone coming new to this thread, I would like to point out that it has become a supporting case study for Penny's article. I am tempted to send it to her!

Totally unfair, curlew. Send it by all means. You are starting from the assumption that everything she says is completely correct, and that anything that doesn't fit your view can be glossed over, e.g. men hating women. It is contradictory in the extreme. I am out.

Oh, and there are women disagreeing with her and you too. So, enjoy your privilege top trumps with them. There is a huff beeping its horn at my door - I am off in it.

curlew it has been really interesting from that point of view. Desperate justification of 'why I don't hate women' being used as evidence that the premise that society hates women must be wrong, exactly as described in the article. That and the 'but this is ok, which means that everything's ok' even when the this isn't actually ok debate.

You know.... the 'I'm not racist/misogynist/homophobic, but' argument.

And now he's accusing me of getting all emotional!

Cisco:Did you read the link about the lowest difficulty setting? If not, kindly fuckoff and do so before you post again.

It's refreshing to see misogyny being referred to as a premiss. It generally gets treated as an axiom on here. The article in the op certainly treats it as an axiom.

What I see on this thread, and in the article, is a refusal to substantiate, question, analyse or justify the core beliefs of radical feminism. While this continues, why should the remaining 99.99% of humanity take any notice? Radical feminism will remain an obscure and impotent fringe faction.

Jo.

Are you of the belief that ther is no discrimation against women in the UK?

Oh, and what do you consider the core beliefs of radical feminism?

I'll repeat a very clear point that curlew made earlier addressing the argument that there is no male privilege because there are equality laws:

Legislation is in place to produce equality. But it doesn't- because the culture of the country prevents it.

If you don't understand or you disagree with this statement then I'd like to know why you think women are beaten, raped, paid less for equal work, stalked and do most menial work in the home, in the office etc etc?

Is it due to their low ability, intellect, strength of character or simply their choice? And before you answer that, remember - choice cannot ever operate in a bubble outside of culture.

Laurie Penny most definitely isn't a radical feminist She doesn't identify as one and radical feminists wouldn't identify her as one either. And what she is espousing in the article isn't radical feminism either. It is just straight common or garden feminism i.e. the recognition of structural oppression.

Generally speaking on Mumsnet, a "radical feminist" is defined as what most people call "a feminist".

unless they are actively calling people out on it, they are condoning it and become part of the problem rather than solution.

Of course, by exactly the same logic, any man that doesn't comment against a feminist issue supports it.

But you sum up the problem. It's the inflammatory language. That's why men get angry. Because they get called perverts/rapists/abusers/cheaters/lazy parents because they "disagree" by having no opinion. Because the actions of the few are accepted as the norm.

It happens on here all the time. The endless threads about Front and Loaded were full of comments calling men rapists and perverts, normally because the men didn't care. Probably because most of them don't read it and don't show it to their kids, so it has exactly zero effect on their life. The joy over Co-op demanding "pervert pouches"...I mean, why? Why use that language?

And there is hypocrisy. Front/Loaded are PORN for PERVERTS but it's ok for men to walk around a supermarket filled with 9 foot high Rob Pattinson and Taylor Lautner shirtless. Page 3 is an abomination, but the Diet Coke man is a bit of harmless fun.

Men are constantly told they don't understand sexism. They really do, it's just in different situations.

You try talking to most men about their experiences of pregnancy. There is no attempt to include them at any point. And before the inevitable "poor men" comments, all the men I know, know damn well that it's all about the mum. They'd just like to be included.

How many clueless man adverts do you see every day? Whether it's useless fathers (Argos, Thomas Cook) or clueless men (Yorkie, any advert involving a cleaning product), men are told they are shit every day. I can't even think of one baby product that has a dad shown on it.

You want to see when the white male doesn't have power? Talk to a divorcee. Talk to the 40% of men that make up the domestically abused. Or the 1 in 7 victims of rape that happens to be male. Rape Crisis proudly boasts it "campaigns continuously to raise awareness of sexual violence, its prevalence and effects and, in particular, we highlight the importance and need for appropriate, high-quality and specialised support for survivors. We challenge attitudes and press for change" but doesn't even acknowledge that male rape exists. Who the hell do they turn to?

You can't demand inequality then act surprised that men don't want that. Why not campaign for the changes that men could get behind? I can tell you right now, men don't want rapists to get away with it - they just don't want guilt determined before a trial. I'm sure most men would be happy to discuss sexual imagery in the media, but they're going to want that to include men, and they're probably going to want to talk about the wall of DIET / BUY / DIVORCE / CHEATER magazines that take up a third of the magazine section. Why not push for better paternity leave for men? That would move the pressure away from women in the workplace.

Demand equality, and you might just find that men and women aren't actually that far apart in their opinions.

Good post Sarabi.

It reminded me about something I wanted to point out..

"unless they are actively calling people out on it, they are condoning it and become part of the problem rather than solution."

There was an interesting thread on AIBU, it was suggesting that we all have a responsibility to take issue with people being aggressive towards/shouting at/swearing at their children. I would agree with that to an extent, but personally, I would certainly think twice in some circumstances, i.e shouting. Would you think that my not getting involved with every bit of bad parenting I see means I endorse 'abusive parenting'. Some posters were saying 'Well, you don't know the situation that has caused the parental outburst'. But being a shit, aggressive, sweary parent harms your kids doesn't it? Am I some kind of apologist because I would not confront a stranger for a 'lesser' parental crime? Isn't raising a child as well as you can a good contributer to his/her success in adult life?

Feminists expect men to take issue with every bit of sexism etc etc they see. If not, they are an apologist, a misogynist. They are supposed to point out to other men their failings, no matter what that failing is. I personally feel in this situation most men are doomed to be cast into that role (and it conveniently perpetuates the men=bad model), just the same as I could be cast into the role of endorsing child abuse because I wouldn't take issue with everything I see in RL.

IYSWIM.

Its a poor quality article whose content lives up to the aspirations of its tittle: "Of course all men don?t hate women." (face-palm)

Try this infinitely better one instead, it actually talks to men, as opposed to pretending to talk to them for the benefit of the female audience watching the show:

jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit-that-hating-men-is-a-thing-will-you-stop-turning-it-into-a-self+fulfilling-prophecy

Dadwashere- it's practically the same article- but for cbeebies rather than BBC2. Can we talk about the issues now rather than the medium?

Would love to read the article mentioned in the OP but there is an ad for Talk Talk Tv that moves down the page as you try to read said article and there is no x in the box to get rid of it.
Thanks Talk Talk.

I am sorry I don't understand curlew, I am not British, I have no frame of reference to understand your point about cbeebies Vs BBC2. But I believe the articles are fundamentally different, not 'practically the same' as you say. If I simply wanted to piss off a man for the fun that is in it I would send him your link. If I wanted to educate him, assuming he could understand it, I would send him mine.

I could go on at length about why I think that but if you want to make it about issues which would you like to discuss? Do I recognise that my teenage daughters are socially disadvantaged more than teenage boys? Yes, I recognised it long before they were born. Are they advancing female respect and improving social clarity in the way they conduct themselves in the world? Absolutely.