Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[curlew]

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

Actually, "a one-sided version of anti-sexism" is a pretty good description of feminism as a whole.

Well, I suppose it is if you think sexism is suffered equally by men and women............Do you?

"It's funny how there are howls of indignation from men when exhorted to get involved. They don't like the tone or deny there is a problem. However, when women decide to do it themselves, there are howls of indignation from men because women are being exclusionary. Can't win I suppose."

yup. Totally.

I personally don't understand why men wouldn't want to support anti-sexism and the feminist movement behind it.

"The issue with men challenging sexism is that (in general) it is in their best interests to maintain the status quo. Men (in general) whether they realise it or not, benefit from the way from the current societal mind set. So for them to challenge it, they have to be prepared to give up a bit of their privileged position. Which is a big ask. But because most men are actually kind, sensitive and thoughtful human beings,it's reasonable to assume that once they realise this, they will be willing to make that small sacrifice in the name of equality. The problem is that it's a difficult thing to think about or to take on board. Particularly if the privilege is so ingrained and normalised that it doesn't look like privilege. Sometimes, particularly from the inside, it can even look like equality."

This ^ a thousand times over.

"I suppose it is if you think sexism is suffered equally by men and women............Do you?"

Well, define "equally". Women suffer sexism in some areas, men suffer sexism in other areas. I expect it probably balances out pretty equally, but I don't think it's useful to nitpick over whether women are discriminated against in 7% more situations, or whatever. I certainly don't think women (in the UK) are the only, or even the large majority of, victims of sexism.

My Dh until recently worked in a profession full of empowered women but with a clientele consisting of some of the most vulnerable, disenfranchised and voiceless women (He was a CPN). He never failed to notice and be disturbed by the contrasts.

I remarked to him once regarding a client of his that he was the first role model in her life not to have tried to either have sex with her or beat her. To work with her as she started to explore something other than being defined by her relationships with men, to start further education and realise that child rearing was not her only recourse was wonderful.

In our working lives we both recall moments of eyes wide open clarity when the reality of life in a patriarchal society hits home. To say anything else is disingenuous and blinkered.

He is also aware that within nursing it may be female dominated but a greater proportion of the senior staff are male. As he says, within nursing the cream doesn't really rise to the top because the system is still very much supportive of and biased towards those who do not need to be pregnant or give birth to be parents. There is much male cronyism especially within psychiatry which still bears traces of the old guard-alpha male dick swinging and hints of uniformed service origins of the original orderlies.

We work with wonderful strong women but they face comments like 'you are a bit strident' from some male senior staff and 'jokes' about their hormonal status in a manner that suggests that to be anything other than laughingly tolerant of such behaviours is to not be part of the (male) gang. Emphatically expressed professional opinions and standing your ground may be depicted in a gender stereotyped negative manner when some of the senior male colleaguse disagree with you. Whereas should two male seniors disagree then there is no other judgement in place other than professional.

Can i clarify that I also worked in the same team as my DH and that is why we were discussing that particular client. We shared her care.

"Women suffer sexism in some areas, men suffer sexism in other areas. I expect it probably balances out pretty equally"

Could you give some examples of how men face sexism in everyday life?

Feel free to use Google, I'm sure there are plenty of lists out there. Off the top of my head: men are expected to play the breadwinner/provider role, men are often portrayed as useless or disposable, men are treated as suspicious or incapable around children, etc etc.

Of course, you will say "But this 'sexism against men' stems from a root cause of sexism against women", but that logic works both ways. Why not say the sexism against women comes from a root cause of sexism against men?

There is sexism against both genders. Neither gender is the victim of a 'primary' sexism which causes collateral damage to the other gender when enforced. Both genders have their roles, both have their examples of discrimination. In the UK at least, neither is worse than the other; both are bad enough.

Google knows everything.

Suelford

Of course, you will say "But this 'sexism against men' stems from a root cause of sexism against women", but that logic works both ways. Why not say the sexism against women comes from a root cause of sexism against men?

The principles of patriarchy have been around much longer than the feminist movement, back when we were owned like property and treated the same way. "Reverse sexism" is the product of men trying to justify the age old treatment of women with their own causes. I agree, the everyday portrayal of men as useless fathers and breadwinners is also damaging but its no use pretending that the deeper social constructs and expectations of women don't exist because there is also sexism towards men.

This isn't tit for tat, perhaps if more men were willing to stay at home or relinquish earning power to their partners without feeling emasculated or embarrassed everyone, regardless of gender can move forward.

Do you think these things are on a par with the massive lack of women in the boardroom, parliament and other positions of power? With the gender pay gap? With the statistics about rape and violence against women? With the everyday objectification that pervades the press and the media generally?

Oh. and if you want evidence for the truth of my last post-
Google is your friend!

Curlew hat is kind of the point of my example. Take a female dominated profession and the men in it are more likely to rise to a senior level. It is not because men make better nurses per se either. But statistically you would expect more nurse trained female bosses and executives within the NHS because there are more female nurses still.

And patriarchy within psychiatry is a whole little cesspit of its own in its historical abuse of power against females. Coercion, sectioning, the use of the term 'compliance' have all been used to dominate women who did not fit into the patriarchal mold of what they should be (institutionalisation of single pregnant women for example, the treatment of Nymphomania but not of their 'male' counterparts.)...

Mignionette- I somehow missed your fascinating post. So many female professions are the same- a man in a Primary school , for example, is likely to be the Head. The nurse's spokesperson on the TV is likely to be a man......And the history of Medicine in general and psychiatry in particular is an unhappy one in this context.

at buffy

also @ Buffy....

Posted too soon.

Remnants of the old order in psychiatry can still be seen in the way that Female clients with personality issues are still demonised by many staff with shades of the 'Hysteria' Freudian approaches.

How I see it - 'We don't have the skills to work with personality disorders but won't admit it = These people are too difficult and cannot be 'managed'. It is their fault.

" I certainly don't think women (in the UK) are the only, or even the large majority of, victims of sexism."

blimey.

being blind to male privilege is a manifestation of that privilege

insisting that women embrace your lack of awareness as the truth about their own oppression definitely makes you part of the problem

Oh hell yes.

'Do you think these things are on a par with the massive lack of women in the boardroom, parliament and other positions of power?'

Women choose not to take these roles, despite huge efforts to get them into them...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink etc.

What are these 'huge efforts' of which you speak, Sigmund?

Minister for women, 30% whatsit onto the boardroom, women only shortlists..of the top of my head. Women don't want these jobs because of prioritizing family life, they just don't want them, accept & move on. I CBA to wax lyrical about this one today, I have 6 children in my house, causing mayhem.