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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The invisible men project

999 replies

ArmyOfPenguins · 06/05/2013 22:45

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

OP posts:
runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:19

That's why this project is a good project - it completely concentrates on the actions of the men. The punters, that is. Not all men will want to pay women for sex. All too often the discussion is centred on the women - not this time.

AnyFucker · 05/08/2013 12:22

That isn't what this thread is talking about

If you want to have a rant about how some women also uphold sexism and the objectification of women, please feel free and I will join you.

Trotting that out as an argument here though reminds me of when I tell my kids off for pinching a biscuit before tea and the elder one pipes up "but he did it first..."

sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:26

runningforthebusinheels "sg, I agree with a pp - you do sound angry. You sound angry that anyone would dare question or challenge the invisible men who choose to pay women for sex."

Let's get some things levelled out, accepted in good faith, ok?

I was not angry at the time it was suggested nor since. I am a little bit disturbed and somewhere disgusted at the suggestion about any paid sex situation is rape. It is not rape by that definition.

I have been an active member on punting boards; so have the police, Customs and Revenue and other men and women in many walks of life none of whom are involved in the sex industry at any level. This is the problem with some of you here and certainly most of the thread. You are making judgements based on what? Do you have and personal information or experience, have you researched the subject at any level beyond "the invisible men" project, do you actually have any idea about this subject whatsoever? Because with all due respect, I think many here do not have a clue and are simply voicing their outrage, which doesn't help the debate much.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:28

There's another thread at the moment on the topic of lap dances. I was really pleased to see a man come on and speak up against the culture of stag nights and lap dances - and state that strippers have never done anything for him. He isn't interested in the attentions of women just because he pays them.

My dh has always said the same - it is the mutual attraction that is the turn on for him.

This always greatly upsets the sensibilities of the punter-types, because it challenges the myth that all men are just into mindless sex, anytime, anyplace with any female, and shows that not all men are willing to treat women like they (the punters) do.

And I reserve the right to my own opinion on men who pay to abuse women. Just as I have my opinion on those who are racist, those who are cruel to children or animals.

AnyFucker · 05/08/2013 12:28

Biblical references now, eh. You are digging deep to excuse that punting habit, aren't you ?

Bunnylion · 05/08/2013 12:30
  1. How would you no one on here has experience or has researched the issues discussed deeply?
  1. Wo are you to say - based on your unfounded sweeping presumption - they shouldn't be able to discuss?
  1. You still sound very angry.
sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:33

AnyFucker "but he did it first..."

But that's not the point I was making, many comments here berate all punters (or men who pay for sex) and even go on to label them all as rapists. Frankly under those terms it doesn't matter who did what first, chicken and egg is irrelevant, all men who pay (or have paid) for sex are not guilty of rape and to claim they are is ludicrous.

If the issue here is simply about those punters who abuse and degrade women, punters or other men within the sex industry then okay case closed. I agree

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:36

Yes, I have researched this. On this board you will find pro and anti prostitution views from regular posters on here. You will find posters (like Beach, for example) who are not only incredibly well-read on the topic, but also work in related areas. Don't be so patronising as to assume that my views come from a lack of any real knowledge on the subject.

AnyFucker · 05/08/2013 12:37

I expect most men who pay for sex would be appalled at being called out as akin to being a rapist

So I can see why you are angry, and I can see why you are looking for ways to justify your abuse of the women you have paid to have sex on. I expect most men who do this have to convince themselves it's not so bad after all...

sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:40

runningforthebusinheels: I agree with all that except there are some punters who do both, good looking men who both pay and get women the traditional way. And I also went to a lap dancing club once, I just wanted to leave asap.

Bunnylion:

  1. When referencing incorrect statements but you are correct so I apologise, maybe they did the research, badly.
  2. What?
  3. Okay if that's what you think.
sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:42

AnyFucker: You're simply attempting to poke me with a stick now, no point in continuing if you won't accept my replies in good faith so I'll leave you to it. Best wishes.

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:44

Why would a good looking man who can get sex via a mutual attraction with a woman also want to pay a woman to abuse her? Possibly because he wants to buy and own that woman? Perhaps he is turned on by the thought of her not really wanting the sex, but that his money buys power over a woman?

No decent man would get off on that, I wouldn't think, good looks or not.

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:46

And, just so you know - it's not only good looking men who can have sexual relationships with women you know. We are really not that shallow.

Plenty of unattractive men are happily married with families.

sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:48

runningforthebusinheels; Okay then perhaps I did make an assumption there myself, but there are also much too many on your part and things which Beach has posted.

Assumption can be difficult, if not impossible to avoid in any discussion but the more severe is surely a mistake? Assuming that all those reports are real and accurate is a mistake. Assuming they are representative of what does go on is in my opinion likely to be correct. Assuming I (or anyone) have paid for sex is just rude. Not saying you did that though.

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 12:51

No, I didn't. You did imply it though, in your previous posts.

Out of interest, why did you say you were an active member of punting sites?

sghueks · 05/08/2013 12:58

runningforthebusinheels: He's not paying to abuse her, he's paying for a service which she is offering without coercion or force. He has acted within the law and within terms set about by the service provider. Okay maybe he hasn't thought of the wider deeper implications but until he has or at least been made aware of them I would argue his conscience is clear.

If a woman is free of any potential issues, no debts, no pimp, she's clear and free to live her life as she wishes but needs to earn a living as most people do. That woman decides to work in a normal job and let's say she also finds two or three men, "regulars" who pay her for sex and she's happy with that extra money and is genuinely friendly and happy to see these men. Are you still claiming they are abusers or scum?

YoniTime · 05/08/2013 13:01

I think the discussion about consent must have upset some punters. Since they wish to continue to buy consent and pretend that is okay.

sghueks · 05/08/2013 13:03

"Out of interest, why did you say you were an active member of punting sites?"

I referred to it and saafe etc so others here would understand that I've read about some of things we are discussing, not just on punter net. It was actually a long time ago and I didn't get involved much, not as much as here that's for sure!!

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 13:03

He is exactly paying to abuse her. She does not want the sex, she wants/needs the money.

He cannot buy consent for sex. Re-read Beach's quite excellent post on consent. The only way a woman consents for sex is wanting sex.

Out of interest, why did you say you were an active member of punting sites?

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 13:04

So are you a punter or not? Have you ever paid for sex?

sghueks · 05/08/2013 13:09

YoniTime: Discussion about consent is fine but attempting to redefine it to win an argument is not. Which punters? Sorry I have no idea who anyone is or what they do.

YoniTime · 05/08/2013 13:18

Well you seem very upset.

AnyFucker · 05/08/2013 13:18

SG, you imply you have paid for sex and been an active contributor on sites that rate a range of women that are selling it

then you go all coy and dodge several attempts to clarify whether you actually do it or not

do you, or do you not ?

sghueks · 05/08/2013 13:20

He is exactly paying to abuse her. She does not want the sex, she wants/needs the money.

She wants to have sex for financial gain, that's her choice and as such is not abuse on his part.

He cannot buy consent for sex. Re-read Beach's quite excellent post on consent. The only way a woman consents for sex is wanting sex.

I completely disagree with Beach's post and there's not much point in going around in circles on that score. All I will add is that under that definition, wives get raped every day by husbands who love them to bits. That can't be right.

Out of interest, why did you say you were an active member of punting sites?

I answered that one?

So are you a punter or not? Have you ever paid for sex?

I am not a punter, I have not paid for sex in the terms outlined here (cash or money) but I have, many years ago, been in a situation where sex was exchanged for something else. I can't say anymore than that because it's a private matter. What I will say is I didn't feel a sense of power or control which is often attributed to these things instead, I felt weak and sorry for myself. I'm still not sure why.

And to be clear fully no one was hurt or abused physically or emotionally apart from my own reaction which I just mentioned. Ok ?

runningforthebusinheels · 05/08/2013 13:36

I find your posts very unclear, sg. You're not a punter, yet you introduce yourself onto MN as an active member of punting sites. You are outspoken in the defence of men paying women for sex. And, I'm afraid you've made some rather derogatory remarks about women in your earlier posts.

You've lectured me on "assumptions" and yet you have deduced from my criticism of punters that I want to return to the middle ages, burning of witches and the death penalty Confused

You have also dismissed, out of hand, a very interesting feminist analysis on the nature of consent. I wonder why you joined up at all? Do you think we're all a bit dim and needed your wisdom?

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