Mary Beard voiced an opinion...

[AbigailAdams]

... and received vicious misogynistic remarks as a reward.

Just in case anyone was in any doubt that women were targetted, specifically because of their sex. Mary Beard was recently on Question Time. She has experienced a horrible backlash for this. Mainly focussed around her sex and her looks, rather than what she said. Also not just her, her children as well.

Mary's hellish misogynistic internet experience

She is not alone. There really is a special type of wrath and insults saved for women. It is desgined to silence us. And this is really just a continutation on from Beachcomber's thread on women's voices being drowned (and kim's thread on MN and misogyny). It really doesn't matter about the subject matter, women aren't supposed to have opinions. Unless they of course they uphold the patriarchy.

It also raises questions about keeping anonymity, when speaking out. We shouldn't have to but when you are threatened with "we know where you live" type comments, it is easy to see why it is necessary.

I haven't really got a question, other than why should we have to put up with this shit? What can we do about it?

I think Mary did a really good thing in highlighting what happened to her and Louise Mensch involved the police and these are probably the ways to go with dealing with it. But god, it is so exhausting. So I suppose this is just a rant really.

I was v pleased to hear they covered this on the Six O'Clock News today. It is almost, like, actually taking it seriously!

Ooh! I didn't know they had. That is good.

Pan, stop stirring. Yes a number of current posters took issue with what she had said about Miss World. There was no "maligning" or "feeding frenzy". There was a long and sometimes heated discussion. In fact part of that discussion was about anonymity on the net and why people are anonymous to avoid targeting by trolls and threats to their home life. Rather topical.

Just because people disagree on one point does not mean that we wouldn't support her on this. Why on earth would you think we wouldn't support her? I cannot imagine any of the posters on that thread last year who wouldn't support her now. You obviously can and that says more about you tbh.

Sorry x-post there with a number of posters! Did not know it was on the 6 o'clock news. That is really good!

I don't think pan is stirring. He's just out of the loop. He quite likely didn't read the thread in question (or he'd not have got it all wrong). People get mixed messages all the time.

Something I liked very much was Prof Beard inviting the person who disagreed with her most strongly, to comment on her blog and get her comments published. It's clear she knew exactly what she was doing.

I don't recall any MN'ers using sexual violence as a threat when they disagreed with MB last year. Nor photoshopping her face onto a vulva.

The funny thing is, feminists don't always agree with each other. They can not support someone on one point, but defend them mightily on another. They are not an homogenous mass against the rest of the world.

Yes, there is a big difference with disagreeing with what someone says (I didn't, personally, on that occasion), and pulling them to pieces with vile and threatening language based on their looks and gender. It's a bit disingenuous to equate them, and to imply that feminists on MN would be hypocritical somehow to defend her now.

Crumbs, LRD, just read your post. Did you mean all of that? An attempt at personal point scoring? For what reason? Any?

It must be awful to have to assume someone else's ignorance in order to v cheaply try to 'make a point'. Debate must be easy for you, then.

I'd posted in support of MB, and any other well-informed, articulate woman who gets 'attacked' for not looking 'right' or dressing 'right'. You appear to have subverted that into something else, for your own reason. That really is up to you, of course. But it seems an odd thing to do on this thread. That's your judgement tho'.

I enjoy watching Mary Beard's TV programmes about the ancient world, especially the Romans, and I think her books about Rome are very good indeed.

It's wonderful that her knowledge and passion for her subject are also inspiring the next generation of classicists, historians and archaeologists.

I'm appalled at the awful treatment she has received following her recent appearance on "Question Time".

pan, I do apologize if I upset you in some way. I can't understand what 'points' I could possibly score in this context?

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I'm very pleased you have decided you do support Prof Beard. I think it is great. I thought this was clear from my post, and I am very sorry if it was not. I can't help feeling you may have misread something ... I did try to explain to you that I and many others have thought very highly of her for a long time. I don't think it is any reflection on you that you didn't know that, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that your support was any less sincere for being less well informed.

I would suggest, by the way, that you might consider extending your support to women who are not 'articulate' or 'well-informed' - surely you didn't meant o imply they deserve to be judged for their appearances?

I am finding your posts very difficult to follow this evening, and you are usually quite clear.

God, I feel like hiding behind the couch when mum and dad are about to start fighting...Pan- how about you de-escalate by acknowledging that the two situations are in no way alike, and LRD can stop digging you up for pissing her off sounding like you've misunderstood?

Pan wrote - "Boy did she get rounded upon by the great and good of the FWR back in the day, like some feeding frenzy. I recall 'irrelevant', 'ultimate handmaid', and 'enemy'"

I did not participate in that Miss World thread, but I did read it.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1341074-Mary-Beard-on-Radio-4-now-with-Point-of-View-about-Miss-World-2011

As far as I can tell, the words "irrelevant" and "ultimate handmaid" do not occur in that thread. Pan, they appear to be your recollection/opinion of what you think was said on that thread, not quotes.

As far as "enemy" is concerned, on the Miss World thread, Mary Beard is quoted as saying in her Radio 4 broadcast, which triggered that thread,"I don't any longer feel that Miss Venezuela is much of an enemy".

FWR posters were not calling Mary Beard the enemy. They criticised her for having felt that Miss Venezuela was her enemy in the past.

Bof - I am the very essence of zen-like calm, I assure you.

Yes, shall we leave it here? I was a bit at your reaction to my post LRD, but this thread isn't about the subsequent exchanges, it's about more important stuff. BOF - the situations are a bit a like i.e. an expression of an opinion being maliciously and insultingly attacked, but of course there are differences.

fwiw am still a bit but we live on.

It's fine, pan - I think you just misread what was going on, it does happen.

Don't let it worry you. At least we're all now on the same page.

vesuvia - which is why rightly I didn't use "quotes". It was a long time ago, so I was careful not to.

g'night.

I think MB has coped very well with what was thrown at her. She has used the abuse thrown at her as an opportunity to highlight and shine a bright light on some very unattractive behaviours and ideas. My view is this is a good awareness raising issue but probably won't change things much on its own. However, it makes it a bit harder for people to deny that these attitudes exist.

I know it feels very frustrating at times and that progress is glacial in pace but I have seen changes in the last decade. For example, I work in the City and was involved in a cross institution committee. When I joined there were 40 members of which 2 of us were women. Within a 12-18 months the number was probably closer to 15. The City has a long way to go but there are more and more women challenging the stereotypes.

I suspect there are quite a few people who don't like that stereotype being challenged hence the reaction to MB. I think pissing off people like that shows you are doing something right.

Well said, chaz!

"an expression of an opinion being maliciously and insultingly attacked" is not what happened on that thread. Stop deliberately misrepresenting it, Pan.

Pan wrote - I recall 'irrelevant', 'ultimate handmaid', and 'enemy'
Pan wrote - which is why rightly I didn't use "quotes".

If your ' ' symbols aren't quote marks, why did you use them?

The key to stopping it is alerting advertisers in newspapers and online that they are supporting hate speech.

Hi friends. Can I just add two little things.. well confessions in part.

First, I had always sympathised with people (largely but not only women) who got this treatment, but had never quite seen what it really was. Now I see that that is partly because it is SO VILE that it is never reprinted.. hence they say that my objections were to remarks about my appearance. No they weren't, they were to people suggesting shoving things up my vagina.

Second.. a year or so ago I had a bit of a run in with some on this site about anonymous comments and people using that to say things they woudnt say to someone's face. Can I now say that I really hadnt got my priorities right. If I went at you, as I did a bit, that was a real nix up of priorities on my part. I still feel that there is an anonymity issue, but the idea that I was firing at you (who were arguing cogently, albeit under sobriquets..). err I look a bit dumb.

Finally .. it was a tough call for me, but I decide to face up to this and am pleased I did, and I'm pleased that the guys running the site saw sense.

I think you've handled yourself admirably, Mary, and I admire you speaking out and raising this as an issue. I wish you all the very best in the future, and think you've been inspirational to all of us in your bravery through all this. I hope it encourages other women to say 'Enough' when it comes to misogynistic online abuse.

Bloody good for you

I too think youve handled this brilliantly Mary. And Les is right its an inspiration to us. Thanks for posting