Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Somerset seems upset that someone has come on how actually knows the industry and isn't quoting beliefs or second hand information. The big picture changes when 10,000 women are choosing for themselves rather than a handful telling everyone what's right. The number of independent thinking dancers making choices is too big to suit them. I think this was the whole reason to claim trafficking as a smaller number of "non trafficked" dancers make claims that stockholm syndrome and living in denial are feasible.

Of course it is an internet forum we could all be anybody. I happen to believe TD is who she says she is. Makes it a lot easier in peoples heads to pretend TD is a man because otherwise some of the "truths" about the industry we have been fed from the likes of the guardian aren't quite as true as we thought.

Who is the more free thinking dancers making choices or those who just want to believe the worst and don't care about what the reality actually is.

Come on, one dancer coming onto MN isn't the oracle of all lap dancing clubs.

She can, and has, talked of her own experience - but she can't say definitively that no women are trafficked- no single lap dancer can reliably make that claim. I think trafficking is probably more commonplace in prostitution - but punters deny it happens there too.

I'm really intrigued as to why the pro-LDC women posting here (aside from TD) are so keen to promote LDC's as being so wonderful with no harmful effects at all.

I'm not buying the "opposing feminist lies" angle. What does it matter to you what people who are opposed to LDC's say?

It just comes across as trying to convince yourself of something and I'm sure not sure why. Men who use the clubs, I can understand why they'd want to convince themselves that it's harmless fun, but what is the motivation for women to do the same?

Somerset - I have read as much as I have had time for of this thread, and there are some of you putting your point of view across tirelessly and it has renewed my faith in the human race.

I will spend more time reading these issues in future, as I am frightened for my children growing up in this very unequal world, where society is determined to stamp out every ill except the objectification of women.

My children carry home horror stories of how 15 year old girls are being treated sexually by their boyfriends and it is screamingly obvious that this industry (the whole sex industry - EVERY part of it) in one way or another is to blame.

I am sure your family and friends are proud of the strong moral fibre running through you that inevitably will transfer itself naturally in one way or another through them and to others because they are lucky enough to have your strong and good influence in their lives.

A lot more than can be said for many many others on here.

Who thinks Tittydancer is a man...? I'm not quite ready to alter my feelings and beliefs on this topic based on one person's alleged experience as a lap dancer. Sorry if that disappoints. But no, I don't think she's a man.

I'm glad you feel smug about TD's assertion that no women are trafficked, sausage. Well done on being so able to be influenced by a single anecdote. :) Do you feel as smug about TD's other assertions, or did you not read her entire post? All is hardly rosy in the garden.

As for caring about what the reality is... how many time...?! It's not just about the individual women lap dancers. It's about the impact on women as a whole. You may not care about the reality of that - you clearly don't - but I do, and it's why I keep arguing the toss on this Godforesaken thread...

Your na-na-na-na-na tone is, quite frankly, just odd. Am I really such an awful person in your eyes for wanting more for womenkind, for wanting as much for my daughter as I do for my son? For wanting my daughter to be able to go out into the world as an individual, without having to worry about the sort of bog-standard unwelcome and unwanted attention that seems to be par for the course for pretty much all women in a way that it isn't for men?

Jo, well if all types of men go to LDCs, then clearly all types of men also don't. There's obviously hope for mankind yet.

And thanks Seen. :)

Interesting if a dancer came on and said she thought they may be trafficking you would have been jumping up and down. 2 dancers (one secondhand via myself) say they believe there is no trafficking but that doesn't fit the theory so it is anecdotal and you can ignore it. Well if that what you need to believe thats up to you but if you were right how come not one club was raided under Pentameter? Seems the police with all their intelligence gathering didn't think the clubs had any Trafficked women either.

It's not just about the individual women lap dancers. It's about the impact on women as a whole. You may not care about the reality of that - you clearly don't - but I do, and it's why I keep arguing the toss on this Godforesaken thread...

And...

Am I really such an awful person in your eyes for wanting more for womenkind, for wanting as much for my daughter as I do for my son? For wanting my daughter to be able to go out into the world as an individual, without having to worry about the sort of bog-standard unwelcome and unwanted attention that seems to be par for the course for pretty much all women in a way that it isn't for men?

Somerset sorry but you are making claims about trafficking, would love to see your proof.

I want my daughter to be able to choose to do whatever she wants in her life. I want my boys to have the same opportunities. Objectification is natural it is part of sexual desire. The evidence is that sexual violence is not spilling out of the LDCs so men who go in there are controlling their sexual desires. If you believe men are coming out of these slavering monsters ready to rape and pillage then why do the crime figures not support that?

You want more for womankind but you don't want 10,000 women to be able to choose because of your personal beliefs. Hmmmm

Sorry - what claims? Can you copy and paste them? I don't recall them, so a refresher would be helpful.

I'm enjoying the notion that men are objectified in society to anything resembling the same extent women are. Amusing idea. Also - a copy and paste of where I said I wanted to ban or disallow anyone from choosing would be good, while you're searching.

In the meantime, stop making up my stance for me, please.

It's Sunday night here and I'm knackered, so this is me until the morning.

Well that is interesting someone making judgements on the UK strip scene who doesn't even live here. Somerset have a good night I really not worried about your views now.

Somerset, thank you so much for posting on this thread - I totally get, and agree with your points about the bigger picture, even though it seems to go way over some peoples' heads.

Seenenough - thanks for your post.

Somerset I was a bit harsh, let clear one thing up though you stated

I'm glad you feel smug about TD's assertion that no women are trafficked, sausage. Well done on being so able to be influenced by a single anecdote. Do you feel as smug about TD's other assertions, or did you not read her entire post? All is hardly rosy in the garden.

The implication and wording of that statement is that it may not be true. Yes everything is not rosy and as I have stated several times the dancers would be better protected by laws. But your wording does imply that the anecdote may be inaccurate.

Also you stated

Besides, we can't quite assert that no dancers are trafficked based on the posts of one person claiming to be a lap dancer on an anonymous internet forum.

Which is true except there have been two national police efforts in the UK to tackle Trafficking and during which no club was raided. So between the assertion of TD and the lack of police activity involving clubs it seems that trafficking doesn't exist in LDCs in the UK. Anyone able to prove different? Or can we just accept that the dancers in the UK are making free decisions?

Also Somerset if most men don't go to these clubs how are they still operating? To support the number of dancers that object have claimed are working (this is where 10,000 comes from) and the average shift wage we are talking either a few billionaires or an awful lot of men going. The figures I got from "that blog" is 250 clubs which means each club is averaging £7000 per night on dances (remembering the house cut). If we assumed each man spent £100 (which seems a lot) that is around 18000 men on any one night in clubs. And how many men could afford more than one night a week? Not too many so in any week that is 120,000 men

Your post in disingenuous, sausage.

Trafficking hasn't formed the basis of Somerset's arguments on this thread and you know it.

No but Somerset implied there was trafficking and there isn't any.

Sausage, with statements like that I can't take you seriously. You can't say 'there isn't ANY'! People are paid to lie. People are paid to cover up. Of course there is trafficking, and if it isn't quite SO prevalent in Britain, it IS in the EU. You sound very very desperate to get a point across...I would love to know what your real motives are.

Wow Seen, you seem to know so much, got any proof that LDCs in the UK have trafficked women in (which the police haven't believed in two anti-trafficking operations). Am I desperate to prove there isn't or are some people desperate to prove there are? Actual more desperate to claim there are as there is no evidence. The moment you take trafficking out one of the key arguments against LDCs falls through the floor as it means the dancers are there of their own free will. I have no doubt that trafficking takes place and that prostitution of trafficked women happens. Just saying the evidence points against it in LDCs

Ok lets go over all the claims about clubs we have seen on this thread

Violence/Sexual crimes: All the figures we have seen have been against this, the only research looking at all the clubs is by a pro striptease fan but he uses a standard methodology that has been quoted by anti striptease so it is checkable. Lillith report has been shown to be unreliable and in error. Claims in Newquay by Inspector Drummond have been shown to be the opposite under a freedom of information request.

Trafficking: No raids on clubs during Pentameter or Pentameter 2 and anecdotal evidence by the one person who works in the industry. No proof by any other party that trafficking happens.

Exploitation: Yes by club owners but could be dealt with by regulations. The dancers are working by their own choice which makes the need to regulate seem a better option than banning.

Wages: All relative but certainly higher than the UK average if we assume an average of 4 shifts.

Objectification: Obviously men objectify the women but the image is not coming out of the clubs or the sexal/violent crime aspect would be higher. Not all objectification is bad we know this as the mother of objectification has stated this herself.

Most men don't go: Given the amount of money the industry is worth there has to be a lot of men going or the clubs would close.

Seriously - what is your motive for going to such great lengths to prove that an industry that is demeaning to women in general, that turns men into leering arseholes, and that adds to the general objectification of women in society is a good thing? If you are a man I am not surprised, and if you are a woman you should be ashamed. Either way, if you were a parent of mine I would be devastated.

If you were a daughter of mine and unable to see that 10,000 women making a choice was a pretty big statement I would be worried about you. My daughter has grown up using logic and reasoning as she wants to be a scientist. I have gotten use to needing evidence to back claims up rather than feelings.

Oh and the standard response round here when all the arguments don't seem to be going the right way you must be a man.

For me over the last year I have heard a lot about the industry, my view is banning it will make more women's lives a misery and the best way of dealing with the industry is to regulate better.

GTG boys are arguing about football (again)

10,000 women work in an industry that pays them too well to take their clothes off. Very few of them would work in the industry if it were for the minimum wage.

Why shouldn't I argue with feelings? Why shouldn't I feel the whole industry shouldn't exist and is a disgusting and huge problem in our society? Why shouldn't I feel that the women who choose to work in this industry are letting womenkind down in general.

I'm sorry if it offends you, but that is exactly how I and I'm sure millions of other women feel. These women are letting me and my daughters and your daughter down by stripping for money and letting men think that's okay. If it really WAS okay, wouldn't these men be telling their wives and their daughters where they go on a Saturday night?

I am NOT ashamed to point out the moral issue here. Whilst places like these exist women will never be considered equal to men, not in work, not in play and not in life in general. I say run the places underground, and then clamp down hard on it and put the bastards that are doing it behind bars where they belong.

Shame on them, and shame on you for arguing that this is okay. Your poor daughter.

You forgot one, sausage.

Paying money for a sexual experience.

I suppose we could all argue using 'plucked from the air' figures like you just have, sausage? Because that's what you've just done in your post at 10:05 today.

Or maybe we should just take the assertions from "Newquay Voice' as set in stone evidence for a so-called reduction in crime when LDCs open? When we don't have any info on the figures that were used?

You will just take anything on board, no matter what its source or credentials are, as long as it supports your case for lap dancing.

Have a read of this and see if you can still categorically say that there are no links between lap dance clubs and sex trafficking.

Lap dancing clubs also get an honourable mention here too.

Oh look, Coventry council doesn't agree with Sausage either.

So couple of things I have picked up on

Firstly lets go over what would happen it clubs were banned.

10,000 women looking for full or part time jobs
Increased demand on council resources while the majority are looking for work.
Sudden decrease in women in further education (up to 3000 women)

Industry goes underground
Run by criminals money leaves the economy
Criminals would have no issues trafficking women as the council won't be checking up on them
No protection under law for dancers or customers.

So everyone who wants to increase trafficking go lets shut the clubs down as it is a very likely follow on.

Secondly DoS pointed out about guys paying for a sexual experience where they shouldn't be touching only looking (TD pointed out some people do abuse this point). So if we take the clubs away do we think men will suddenly change? Or that they will jst spend the money on other sexual experiences.

As for someone speaking for million of women question for you, why when a consultation took place in Portsmouth did 114 people want a nil policy and over 3000 against the nil policy? I believe in Hackney 67% of people were against the nil policy and that Tower Hamlets have never released their figures. The protest in Medway wasn't a consultation but it could be a regional issue. And most importantly why were Object who are the supposedly the force behind closing down LDCs have such a small membership? The stop page 3 campaign managed 1% of the female readership on the online petition. The millions of women you are claiming doesn't seem that big to me.

As to my claims and figures well that is my guesstimate if you can do better please let me see.

Coventry, interesting it is a councillor making a statement and claims about violence and sex crimes, oh wait has he got figures? Or is he doing what Drummond did? Seems that in 2011 Club Heat had one violent or sexual crime during the whole year within 50 metres which is the distance quoted before for Bristol. This was taken off the police database so not sure the councillor could back his claim up. Thanks to Stripping the illusion blog for the information.

Most women don't want to believe this is how men see them, and the people who turn out to voice their opinions on these matters when a lap dancing club is closing down, are the men who frequent the place and the staff who work there. The rest would rather it just went away quietly.

As our society slowly becomes more degraded by the wide use of violent Internet porn, the normalisation of naked dancing clubs, and the widespread and worsening prostitution use, and as more women become effected directly by this industry as they discover husbands and partners and sons becoming addicted to various sexual experiences outside of their marriages and relationships, there will at some point be more support for the closing of these places.

Sadly, at the moment, most men don't tell their wives and girlfriends they frequent these places, and so it is not something a lot of women think exists in as huge and as devastating form as it is. There are a LOT of men lying to people close to them about this, because they know women would be out in force to have these places closed down if they knew.

Can I ask what you mean by 'nil policy' exactly, Sausage, for clarity.

I've got the wording of the Portsmouth Licensing Policy Committee report here, and the options consulted on and considered.

Perhaps Coventry Council don't rely on 'Stripping the illusion' for their information, sausage? Just a thought...