Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Yes Tunip - Oscar Owide was all cheerful and welcoming to the Guardian journo at first - then he found her talking to the dancers on their own and got very shirty, and threw her out. One wonders what he might be wanting to hide.

Larry - if dinosaurs still existed - would they be to blame for the demand for their roasted meat?

somerstoneil yes it is obvious that you can't tell which dancers are there out of their own free will. Which is why I asked specifically about workers who were there 'of their own free will'. Perhaps I should have added 'and aren't drug addicts or abuse survivors' to have been clearer.

I'm just interested as to why on these boards there is no criticism of women who objectify themselves freely, who are not drug addicts or abuse survivors.

I'm not advocating the blanket criticism of a wide group of people. And personally I wouldn't call any of them names.

If your criteria to escape criticism is 'feelings' and 'needs' then fine. And a fear of shaving your legs. ... I can't really go with that myself tbh.

Sorry, my last post in response to one of Larry's more bizarre analogous arguments involving dinosaurs

Dinosaurs this time - not gorillas?

GetAll, this is a wider issue within many political movements, and indeed many religions. 'If all you have is a hammer, then everything has to look like a nail'. Some strands of feminism lay all the ills of the world at the feet of the patriarchy, which pretty much defaults to 'men'. Those strands do not seem to give women agency or autonomy - these freedoms apply only to men. So the patriarchy is the hammer that is constantly used to bash the male 'nail'. All other prejudices and handicaps - racism, disability, class, wealth (or rather lack of) - pale into insignificance.

This isn't a whinge, it's an observation about a political doctrine. I have my own ideas as to why, but then I'd be castigated with the quaint 'mansplaining' accusation.

Now a dinosaur strip club, that's something I might be tempted to visit.

Well, the dinosaurs would only have themselves to blame, GetAll, for creating the demand for dinosaur strip clubs....

[hwink]

Given dinosaurs are male and female Sabrina I'm going to whole heartedly agree.

:o

Ah, but in Jurrassic Park they were all female.

Well, before it all began to go wrong anyway. [hwink]

Namechangeguy, I don't, personally, think that holding the men that go to lapdancing clubs responsible for the demand for LDC's is 'hitting all men on the head with the big feminist hammer' or whatever you said.

I don't actually hold all men responsible for lap dancing clubs - just the ones that go to them, and the ones that own and profit from them. So it's not about bashing all men - just the ones that endorse the whole mentality that says that going to LDC's is a normal and acceptable behaviour. It's not.

There are plenty of men that don't think LDC's are the norm.

Going back to supply and demand, i do believe that in the case of LDC's their popularity has been more to do with the supply of them. Over the years these clubs have popped up in quite a lot of smaller towns. For me and my mates we used to have to head to Birmingham for an LDC, which is quite a trek and so we wouldn't bother unless it was for something special like a stag do. We would instead just go for nights out at our local town and head to the usual bars and nightclubs. Then a lap dancing club opened and thought we'd give it a try. This has now replaced the nightclub to become our usual end of night destination. I do reckon there's a fair few people who go out of curiosity too. LDC's have now become more mainstream and i am seeing and hearing more girls going to them, especially Burlesque themed nights.

I think when they introduced SEV's a couple of years back people like Object thought that most of the clubs would get closed down, however what they didn't allow for was that the general public weren't really opposed to them. The number of objections received for most clubs has been tiny. Our local club got around 60 objections last time. To put this in perspective, Sainsburys wanted to convert a pub to one of it's convenience store on the same street as the LDC. This however received 450 objections. So you can see where peoples priorities lie, when there are more objections to a supermarket.

just to add we now have a 2nd LDC that has recently opened just around the corner from the other one. It calls itself a 'ladies and gentleman's' clubs and features male dancers and drag acts. Both clubs are owned and run by women too. So i fail to see how people on here can keep blaming men for all of this

Interesting article featuring an interview with a lap dancer. Contains positives and negatives regarding the job including quite a few of things that have been mentioned on here from both the pros and the anti:

www.sunderlandecho.com/lifestyle/lap-dancer-tells-why-she-chose-to-entertain-men-1-5081923

No need to take me quite so literally, larry. Going without make-up is clearly not up there with front-line combat in the bravery stakes...

However. You're wilfully missing the point. You work (worked?) in banking? Are you honestly telling me that if one of your women colleagues came in every day with zero make-up, a mono-brow and hairy legs, she wouldn't have had the pissed completely ripped out of her and been the butt of a huge number of jokes? You're telling me that your LDC-frequenting mates and you would have taken her at face-value and not blinked an eye at her state of being....? Right...

Julia Roberts sported underarm hair at a movie premier once, and it was front page news around the world. I don't think anyone's dared to do it since.

But sure. You tell yourself that women aren't conditioned to wear make-up and de-fuzz themselves and that no-one cares if they don't. You tell me that it doesn't take a certain amount of guts to be that women. The hairy one, who's always bare-faced and never, ever on the receiving end of judgment and sniggering. You tell yourself that.

And in contrast to Daddancers claims : Here

People don't want streets in their town centres, near schools and churches to become 'sex streets.' I'm an agnostic atheist, so I have little time for christian societies in general. But here they proved themselves useful :)

And this on the armpit hair, Somerset.

Pixie Lot also caused a storm in the summer by being caught with about a mm of stubble under her arms - the Metro talks about 'whether she's learned her lesson'

Thankyou for posting the link to that story, Daddancer, I think it sums up neatly everything that most on here have said about the way lapdancing objectifies women and mythologisies the sex industry as something that is good for women and normal for men.

Firstly the dancer begins by saying that it was discussed with her partner and he said it was OK and she was allowed to do it - wow what an empowered woman - I wonder how many shelf-stackers have felt the need to ask their partners if it's OK to do their job? We then get the myth that it is all OK because she is doing it for her family (thank heavens she is not one of those strumpet women who just likes making an exhibition of herself!), that she is earning a fortune (investing in properties no less, yet oddly not enough money to avoid her partner doing night shift with baby and full-time job - why doesn't he give up work if they have money to invest in proeprty, oh could it be that his is the main income or that he is in the "serious" long, term career??), that she is not ashamed but, of course can't tell her children about her job, understood why her dad was ashamed and won't give her real name for the article. I love the detail about how if her daughter did it, then both parents would "support her" - how many shelf stackers require emotional support, I wonder? I notice she couldn't understand the concept of objectification (like many on here) but simply turned the idea around and thought about how it must feel for men who can't get a girlfriend. Lastly, in an attempt to find something good about lapdancing she felt it may be beneficial for local hairdressers.......I can't believe she forgot to mention interior decorators as well, utterly hilarious!

And the final proof that lapdancing is all about objectifying women; despite the article concentrating on her role as a Mum and the whole thing about the benefits for her family, do we get a picture of a Mum playing with her kids? No, we get a picture of a woman in lingerie in a sexually provocative pose.........but noone here is being objectified!!

Ah, I miss the Metro for a bit of commuter-friendly, mindless, utter drivel!

Thanks Sabrina - point beautifully made. Gotta love how they suggest Pixie mustn't have had a shower, because of course hairy women necessarily = dirty and unclean. [rolls eyes to high heaven emoticon] Is it any wonder most of us don't have the guts not to de-fuzz?

"However. You're wilfully missing the point. You work (worked?) in banking? Are you honestly telling me that if one of your women colleagues came in every day with zero make-up, a mono-brow and hairy legs, she wouldn't have had the pissed completely ripped out of her and been the butt of a huge number of jokes? You're telling me that your LDC-frequenting mates and you would have taken her at face-value and not blinked an eye at her state of being....? Right..."

If she were in sales, she would have had to present a pretty face. If in trading or research, no one would have given a shit. That was one of the few really good things about banking. People were judged on results rather than appearance.

And they certainly would have had less jokes than a guy who never ever shaved, for instance. And no one is citing that as evidence of a matriarchy.

I can't believe she forgot to mention interior decorators as well, utterly hilarious!

I know. I mean, the decor of those places... It's 'mind-blowing' stuff...

Thanks Rosabud - excellent post. I don't think I need to read the article Daddancer posted now

A guy can't have a beard if they work in banking Larry? Who knew?

Lets pick up again on objectification, firstly we know from martha nussbaum not all objectification is bad. In fact sexual desires are completely natural every man and woman will have them in their life. So realistically we want people to turn their brains off? So do people think banning them will be the end of this or will it go underground? We can assume it would go underground at which point it is really run by the criminals, would be likely to have trafficked women and much more likely abuse would happen. But thats ok because it makes some peoples morals feel so much better because it is illegal. Nevermind the loss of jobs, cost to the economy, increases in council tax to cover the loss of council income. We are happy because we have made women victims because the law can't protect the ones that end up working underground but we can then happily point out look trafficking and it would be accurate. So while LDCs operate there are legal options to protect people but we want women to become victims.

Ahhh lets cover money as rosa brought it up, the dancers are admitting to £48k a year for working 4 shifts a week, this being a cash business and that tax men read research how many do you think admitted their full earnings. Or even those just earning £48k for 4 shifts, what happens if they do 5 shifts (£60k). Now most of the dancers interviewed were working northern venues. So what would happen to that average wage if more dancers were interviewed further south.

And when you get right down to it closing LDCs would be bolting the barn door after the horse has escaped. Children are exposed to sexualisation and objectification long before they are old enough to be able to enter these places.

Well I really most stop doing this but people's logic sometimes just infuriates me.

If she were in sales, she would have had to present a pretty face. If in trading or research, no one would have given a shit. That was one of the few really good things about banking. People were judged on results rather than appearance

Yes, of course. Before you (men) all buggered off to a SEV after a hard day's trading.

And no one is citing that as evidence of a matriarchy.

Well, no. Since there isn't one.

"A guy can't have a beard if they work in banking Larry? Who knew?"

Sure they can, but they often get teased for it. And even then it has to be neatly groomed. Never seen a man with a full long beard and tache on a trading floor. Have you?

Somerset,

Nope, no matriarchy but, last I looked, no net objective evidence of a patriarchy in UK either.

You cannot state something as a fact which is open for debate and use it to buttress an argument. It is self referencing yourself as omniscient. I know you may believe it but, sorry, I don't.