Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

'So do people think banning them will be the end of this or will it go underground? We can assume it would go underground at which point it is really run by the criminals, would be likely to have trafficked women and much more likely abuse would happen.'

Nope. Bigger legal sex industry leads to bigger illegal sex industry, end to legal sex industry makes it easier to stamp out the illegal.
Contrast Iceland and Amsterdam. Which one do you think has the bigger trafficking problem?

somerset you know we all , men and women , experience forms of un wanted social ridicule for not following social norms.

And I think it comes down to whether you want to be yourself or fit the norm for an easy life.

But saying you feel the patriarchy is forcing you to conform and become fearful forcing you into shaving your legs and wearing make seems to me a pretty weak position to take if you really would prefer not to wear make up and go hairy.

I work in the arts, and it is a very egalitarian environment full of fairly liberal minded 'arty' individuals who wouldn't give a hoot about women's hairy legs. I'd say at least 50% of my female colleages ( approx 150 ) and bosses wear no make up, most remaing simply eye liner, and I've no idea if they shave their legs as very few walk around with bare legs.

It's quite a eclectic bunch, and most I'm sure have in the past and present have to put up with random comments from idiots strangers because they look and behave outside of social norms.

There are of course a minority of women at work who do wear make up. These women also generally show a lot of cleavage and commonly wear short skirts and tight tops.

All their own choice. I've no criticism other than the distraction they can cause.

I can only speculate as to why they dress like that in a work environment that doesn't preasure to dress like that. Perhaps they enjoy the attention it innevitably garners, perhaps they have low self esteem, maybe both, maybe not.

I'd imagine a city trading firm is going to be way different in it's attidudes of course. Known to be a highly sexist environment. But as such I don't think it's the norm or a good example of the average work place.

And nor is mine.

If you want to stop wearing make up and have hairy legs you should do it and ignore any ignorant comments you might get, or try and find a more enlightened working environment.

'no net objective evidence of patriarchy' Sure Larry.

Larry - re the beard thing - a bit of gentle ribbing about a beard (I must say I never came across that when I worked in banking) is not the same as the public dressing down by the media of Julia Roberts and Pixie Lot.

Larry

A roasted dinosaur restaurant is clearly absurd, as there are no dinosaurs.

It would be perfectly possible to run a chain of roasted horse restaurants in the UK - there are plenty of horses potentially available. However, eating horse isn't widely socially acceptable in the uk, so the demand isn't there.

Personally, I'm still hoping someone will explain why a stripper, who is psychologically healthy, is not criticised, but the bloke that pays her is. In any other situation I can think of, where freely consenting adults engage in something deemed to be immoral, both parties come in for criticism.

When one side of a debate consistently refuses to tackle a point, it starts to look like they can't without back-tracking.

Doctrine,

One is supply and no demand. The other is demand (well, possibly :)) and no supply. As I said, it is chicken and egg, you need both to have a business. One without the other will not do.

Jothehot - it's been explained quite clearly upthread.

Briefly it's because it is the men creating the demand for these clubs - no demand, no clubs.

Sausage - having no lap dancing clubs is not asking anyone to 'turn their brains off.' That idea is laughable. There are plenty of ways men can express their sexual desires in life without having to pay a woman to wiggle at him (whilst bouncers look on

Tunip, interesting that a country that is twice as small as Amsterdam and therefore much easier to police is always used as an example yet by its definition we cannot know about if/what and how much underground activity takes place in Iceland.

We see all the claims about trafficking in prostitution yet Pentameter 2 actually got no arrest from all the brothels and massage parlours and there were only 5 prosecutions during that time for trafficking (not related to Pentameter). So from that do we assume that no trafficking is taking place or the police find it hard to prosecute an illegal activity involved in an illegal business? If the later the lack of protection will see women as victims if LDCs go underground. If the former then all the arguments about trafficking for all the sex industries go right out the window.

Larry - why isn't there a demand for roasted horsemeat in the UK then? There's a plentiful supply of horsemeat available - and it's quite acceptable to eat it in France.

If it is chicken and egg - why not roasted horsemeat restaurants?

If people started to demand horsemeat - you can bet your bottom dollar that horsemeat restaurants would be opening up.

So are drug takers solely to blame for the drug trade? No demand, no drugs.

Contrast Iceland and Amsterdam. Which one do you think has the bigger trafficking problem?

I don't think you can really compare the two.

Iceland has a population of 320,000, which is about the same as the population of Birkenhead.

Holland has a population of 16.7 million people.

Is there a plentiful supply of horsemeat? Does it make more sense to raise horses for eating than riding? Frankly I doubt it. I have tried horse meat in France and it is not that great really tastewise.

I suspect if horses beat cows, sheep and pigs economically to eat, then someone would create demand by trying to change people's perceptions.

Having said the above, it is quite theoretical.

Yes, Larry, there is a plentiful supply of horsemeat - it is generally exported to Europe where horsemeat is considered acceptable for human consumption. There are some claims that it goes into petfood.

There would be nothing to stop people breeding horses for food just like cattle, but the demand for the meat for human consumption just isn't there in the UK. It's there in France - and, oh look, you can eat horsemeat in French restaurants.

Article here

It says Gordon Ramsay caused outrage by cooking horsemeat - the supply is there, just not the demand.

That's why I think the demand for lap dancing clubs is the important thing to look at here.

Sabrina - 'Briefly it's because it is the men creating the demand for these clubs - no demand, no clubs.'

So healthy, well-educated, uncoerced women are okay to do it because men want it? Is that what you are saying? What if men want them to do other things too - is that okay?

No, it's not what I'm saying.

I'm just laying the blame at the door of the men that create the demand for the clubs. As has been already said - without the men going to these clubs you're just left with a load of half naked women sitting doing nothing in an empty club.

Sabrina do you think it's the same with the beauty industry ?

It only exists because of the demand from women ?

GetAll - no I'm not talking about the beauty industry, I'm talking about the lap dancing industry. This thread is about lap dancing clubs.

'I'm just laying the blame at the door of the men that create the demand for the clubs'. I know you are. Let's say I was a healthy, educated, uncoerced lapdancer (female, obviously). What would you say to me? That question is open to other too, by the way.

I'm talking about the lap dancing industry. This thread is about lap dancing clubs.

Sorry I thought you were talking about horsemeat within this discussion.
Hang on, you were talking about horsemeat.

Getting back to menz brainz

Okay so here's a question. A man in a relationship finds the relationship (in his mind) is getting stale. He feels that he needs an external stimulus. Out of the 4 options below which is the worst?

Sleep with a prostitute
Use Porn
Lap Dancing club
Have an affair.

Now not saying a man should get the urge to look outside of the relationship but if you have every been on the relationship threads these 4 are the ones that crop up. To my mind a strip tease with no contact and bouncers/cctv looking over the shoulder would be a lot better than the other 3 things that keep cropping up on the boards.

It is just another thing to think of.

Outta here must stop posting must stop posting must stop posting.

Outta here must stop posting must stop posting must stop posting.

< channels the godfather >

Just when I thought I was out.... they pulled me back in.

Wow, what an incredibly old-fashioned, regressive view of men's sexuality and the rights of men vs women you have Sausage!

He feels he needs an external stimulus so he has a right to do something that risks hurting a woman in some way, either through being unfaithful or participating in the sex industry regardless of the coercion and abuse that exist in all areas of it.

How about:
-erotic fiction, in the production of which no real women could possibly have been harmed
-good old imagination

An external sexual stimulus is neither a necessity nor a human right.

Yes, Larry started it about the dinosaurs and horsemeat as usual. Larry likes to muddy the waters a bit.

I wasn't talking about the beauty industry though was I?

Can I ask why you seem so desperate for me to condemn the dancers and not the men who go the lap dancing clubs?

For the record, I agree very much with Grimbletarts earlier post on the subject - I'll see if I can copy and paste it for you.

But I do hold the men who go to these clubs (and lets remember that it isn't all men as being responsible for the demand of them.

OK sorry you did not say he has a right (am posting while looking after 3 small children) but you are implying that there has to be a choice between one of those 4. Why choose between 4 things that harm women at all? Why not just do something that doesn't?

Sausage, men don't have do any of your 4 options.