Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

There I was sitting back and enjoying the futility of the discussion and lol and behold claims are made again about trafficking and abuse. Interesting the during Pentameter and Pentameter 2 no SEVs came up on the radar. With the resource thrown into the projects and all the claims about SEVs not one was raided. Sort of says no trafficking. The SEVs are big money businesses why would they need trafficked women when there are seemingly lots of women that are happy to work in the clubs.

So this claim of abuse? Who is abusing the dancers? Customers can't touch so at worst I would guess there is some low level verbal comments from drunk men. Betting anyone who has worked on a helpline has had worse and a lot more often.

Certainly as we have seen there seems to be no link between venues and sexual abuse outside.

LineRunner Portsmouth is definitely interesting as in the deputations local residents have commented on the fact that the security and CCTV has helped bring crime down.

So it comes down to is objectification bad? Men and women fantasise all the time so if it is bad no one should be allowed a fantasy. And I will try and stop myself AGAIN from coming back, but statements made with no facts to back them up do get under my skin.

Well, let's be honest, until a certain point in time, there were no LDCs, and guess what, no men went to them. Someone saw potential demand, started a business, advertised, branded etc. Just like any other business. It is a bit like fast food (not that I am saying that is great). No one knew they wanted a processed yucky burger topped with soggy lettuce and overfatty mayonnaise until McDs opened its doors in the UK.

"Everyone has to make their way in the world - and given that the world is constructed under patriarchal terms - we often have to make our own negotiations with the patriarchy to get by. For example, I wear make-up and shave my legs. I'm not brave enough to make the stand against it - to be the make-up-free, hairy-legged women, because of all the judgement I'd get if I did that. Judgement that men don't get and can't understand."

This is one lens through which you can choose to view the World, and far from the only one.

For me, women try to make themselves more appealing to men in order to attract a mate, in the same way as plenty of animals do in the animal kingdom. And vice versa.

If you live in a free country like most of the Western World, you will attract remarkably little "judgment" if you choose not to shave your legs or not wear make up. I know plenty of women who do neither and no one really notices. To pretend you need "bravery" to do either of the above diminishes the meaning of real bravery. This idea of women having to make negotiations with the patriarchy in order to "get by" in the UK is really self pitying rot...and most women would have very little sympathy with that perspective (and certainly not in the instances that you have sited).

Kim,

Have explained a thousand times. Have not been for about 12 years. Last time I went was stag do. Before that, probably went about 1-2 times per annum for 5-10 years. Mostly I either went at the end of stag nights or as a client of interdealer brokers (I worked in the financial markets). It was somewhere to go after a decent meal out and very much part of that culture at the time.

I have no real beef for them and would not give two hoots if they all closed tomorrow. What I find offensive is the idea that all men who go are somehow low lives. And the fact that most who post that are not even willing to enter a meaningful dialogue with men to discuss the motivations without slagging them off and getting very personal.

Men who go them are low lives Larry.

No, UK police failing to deal with a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, Sausageeggbacon.

Polaris Project - trafficking into strip clubs in the US

Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time.

The list of deputations, Sausage, seems to show only one local resident speaking in favour of the SEVs. The other deputing Portsmouth residents appear to be speaking against.

The deputations in favour all apppear to have been from 'the industry' IYSWIM.

Media images andf the comments underneath also appear to suggest that a local resident in favour of the SEVs was holding a sign and possibly wearing a t-shirt saying 'Save Our Jobs', as are members of staff from one of the SEVs. These signs and t-shirts seem to have been made specially for the protest outside the meeting and for wearing in the public gallery, and at the deputation table, inside the meeting.

And 'Wiggle' hailed the meeting as a 'victory' in the local press, so I wouldn't be too worried about them.

All this is discernible by looking at the websites of the city council and local news media sources.

Still Larry, I suppose this time at least it's a discussion thread - rather than the last time when you were posting your evo-psych stuff on a thread in Relationships by a woman who was posting because she was desperately upset about her husband visiting a lap dance club.

I do find the suggestion that there is no abuse because customers aren't meant to touch a bit naive.
From one dancer's experiences, quoted in this BBC article:
'Danns, 28, regrets that her time as a lap dancer made her a harder, more cynical person. She admits she was initially seduced by the notion that modern lap dancing was a safe, secure expression of female empowerment.
In fact, she says, her experience was defined by the damage it gradually inflicted to her self-esteem and the regular verbal, and sometimes physical abuse she received from customers.'

"Men who go them are low lives Larry."

"Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time."

As opposed to your brilliantly logical take on things...

Yeah yeah Larry. You keep on with your lectures - I'm sure we all find them sooo enlightening.

Gorillas and the animal kingdom? When we're talking about lap dancing clubs? Way to muddy the waters.

I have no interest in these establishments. Close them all. I do enjoy reading certain ideologues desperately trying to pile all the blame into one corner though, defying logic as they go.

Let's assume that within the SEV/LDC environment, there are two groups of women - those there of their own free will, and those who are forced. Those who are there freely are able to do so because the industry is underpinned by those who are forced. If they opened their eyes and gave two moral hoots, they would leave. But they don't, because like the men who frequent these places, they choose to ignore exploitation and misery of (other) women.

You should not pile all the blame at the door of these women, but neither should you give them a free pass because they are women. They are exploiters too. I can see this because I am not driven by an ideology that forces me to see that exploitation is only carried out by men. At what point does radical feminism accept that women have some responsibility for their own actions?

Here's a bit of fun;

[http://www.poledancingschool.com/]

Founded by and run by a woman. Anyone fancy enrolling their daughter?

Do I get a prize for bringing up the first 'what about the womenz' cry in MN history?

Sorry - here is the link - www.poledancingschool.com/

It's not the first. Derailing discussion of bad stuff men do by squealing 'Sometimes women do it too!' is a boringly standard tactic from people who can't cope with focusing on harm done by men.

Tunip you do know that Danns was promoting a book co written by Object. Object also got the publishing deal for her. Everything is likely to be coloured.

So there are 10,000 dancers in the UK, assuming a life span of 10 years (I am sure some leave a lot earlier and others stay longer) that means 1000 dancers leaving the industry every year. So Object have 2 testimonials from dancers over the last 10 years out of 10,000 leaving the industry. That is way too small a data set for me to take what they say as gospel for everyone.

Nowadays the clubs have to have security supervising or CCTV so the customers can't get away with anything. Make changes to protect the dancers seems a good idea and it is what Leeds recommended.

Damn done it again.

I wonder if the Wiggle protesters in Portsmouth shouted at any of the women councillors on ther way into the meeting.

I am not denying it though. Men going to these places by default support exploitation of women who are there against their will, and it is wrong. Such exploitation should stop and the full force of the law should be brought against those who traffic human beings. I can be no clearer. Are you deliberately ignoring that aspect of my posts?

'Men going to these places by default support exploitation of women who are there against their will, and it is wrong.'

Thank you for putting it so clearly, Namechangeguy.

Larry - if you don't give 2 hoots if all lap dancing clubs were closed tomorrow, why do you argue for them so vociferously on these threads?

What does it matter to you if I think men that go to LDC's are low lives or not? It's a fairly commonly view held by many women and men.

And as I said on the last thread - we are not in the 'animal kingdom' anymore - we are in civilised society (apparently) where women should not be paraded around clubs half naked for the amusement of men, and for the profit of club owners.

By the way, does anyone know the proportion of men and women lap dance club owners?

Sausageeggbacon, one of the main findings of the Leeds study was that verbal abuse and unwanted touch was frequently experienced.

To refresh your memory, among the disadvantages of the job listed, 40.1% said 'Customers are rude or abusive towards me.'
30.7% said 'I have lost respect for men.'
It is clear that Danns' experiences were in no way atypical. And this is the study where the biggest limitation in the methodology was that they only went into clubs where the management allowed full access to dancers by the researchers. I don't need to spell out how that is likely to skew the results of the survey....

You are welcome, Tunip. However, it's a pity that your ideology only lets you see a part of the whole picture.