Sorry if someone was made to feel unwelcome

[GetOrfAKAMrsUsainBolt]

I refer to a complaint made to Rowan on the 'sleeping with the enemies' thread - it was made by a gay woman who felt that she was being made to feel unwelcome.

I don't know exactly what the complaint was but I assume it is to do with the lesbophobia terminology used.

I am really sorry if that has upset someone - it is not a word intended as an insult. I only used it in context of an argument about vile thread a few months back. In that thread a MNer (who happened to be gay) stated some very distasteful and triggering views, and a good number of MNers complained about it and rebuked her on the thread. Another MNer (call her X) said that this was a mark of 'lesbophobia' (her words) and that a lot of MNers were homophobic.

This was strongly contested by lots of people - I am not homophibic in the least, and neither are most of us on here, there are plently of long standing gay women on MN, and some were raised in families with gay women, so for a great sweeping statement of 'you lot are lesbophobic' was bloody out of order.

Hence the reference to it on that thread. I am sorry that it was upsetting, it is certainly not a word I use and I only used it in the context of the above. I can see that at best it looks like ignorant flippancy and at worst looks insulting. So please accept my apologies.

Rowan - if you want to delete this thread as you don't want another bunfight please can you forward my apology to the MNer mentioned by you (I am going to report this post but I think this is the best way to communicate directly with MNHQ). Thanks

I don't think I have ever seen such attitudes displayed on MN, apart from maybe one dear departed member. The threads discussing such things that stand out in my mind have been positive and accepting with regards to sexuality. I know with the Turning Tavern threads as an example, the point might have been raised that cheating is cheating and having an emotional/sexual relationship with another woman as opposed to a man does not lessen the "crime"

This reminds me of when white people tell me that they saw no evidence of racism and why am I complaining because there are worse examples of racism out there.

Hothead I would be open to being told if I was getting my language wrong and I'm sure others would as well.

Eats, can you give some examples of this? You seem to have obviously taken this personally. It would be useful to everyone, I am sure, to see where maybe language has been offensive.

Porto - Since some of the posters on this thread have been incredibly dismissive of the idea, then sorry no I dont want to discuss examples. I am leaving this thread. I am more than happy to have a discussion about this with anyone who really wants to discuss it. But just as I wouldnt want to discuss examples of racism with people who dismiss the idea that those in a space are possibly racist, so I dont wish to do the same around lesbophobia.

And this is not taking it personally. But simply refusing to waste my time doing this.

The thing is, for the majority of people, their sexuality isn't an issue. Homophobia and lesbophobia has always been challenged.

Ior, perhaps you don't have any.

Maryz, yes. I suspect there aren't any that have gone unchallenged, tbh.

"Porto - Since some of the posters on this thread have been incredibly dismissive of the idea, then sorry no I dont want to discuss examples. I am leaving this thread. " Dismissive of what though? There are many Lesbian posters on MN. I have not seen any examples of people being offensive to others due to their sexuality. Apart from maybe one poster. It would not be left to stand if it happened.

I do have to say though, there is only ONE poster for whom sexual orientation seems to be a HUGE thing on MN. Mostly, it is an unremarkable part of someone's personality, only relevant when the subject comes up - like being left handed. And of course it comes up in Relationships, or Parenting, where posters feel they need to explain their set up to get the best advice.

I think lesbophobia does exist on MN, and I bet it something lots of people (including me) don't easily notice. That's our problem. And I agree with hothead that it would be good if there were a word for the way people act when they are not motivated by an active 'phobia' but are still being quite discriminatory.

But - forgive me for saying this - I think it is perfectly possible to prop up discriminatory stereotypes by pretending they're oh-so cool and awesome, just as it is by pretending they're oh-so awful and disgusting. Someone who thinks two women kissing is disgusting, is an obvious lesbophobe. Someone who thinks two women kissing is like, man, so sexy they should do it in front of me all the time! And in films! And at clubs! So I can watch! - well, that person is IMO also discriminating against lesbians, but they're harder to identify online. Calling someone on that kind of behaviour isn't, IMO, lesbophobia.

My feeling on some threads - like turning tavern - was that some posters did cross that line, and it felt uncomfortable. It's not ok to say whatever you like, to objectify someone else's sexuality or someone else's body, just because you're discussing two women and not a woman and a man.

Yes, I think it's true it's less likely you see things if you're in the minority (not sure 'harder' is the fair word?), and it's true often it's not active discrimination.

But - sorry, I made my points together and they are separate: there is also, IMO, a form of active discrimination that doesn't express itself as disgust at lesbianism, but as a creepy and unpleasant assumption lesbianism is automatically great, because it exists to turn other people on. Am I making any sense?

I agree LRD. It comes across on here as watching 2 women being every mans dream. And therefore WATCHING them do it is totally acceptable. And this takes a woman's sex like straight back to the MENZ and what they like.

utter bollocks

Not seeing or experiencing things in the same way is one thing - and I can quite see how many of us might say the wrong thing, inadvertently, without meaning to offend. But the accusation that EBAL made is quite a different thing, implying some kind of active, definite attempt to stop lesbian posters being open about their sexuality.