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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sorry if someone was made to feel unwelcome

196 replies

GetOrfAKAMrsUsainBolt · 25/09/2012 12:16

I refer to a complaint made to Rowan on the 'sleeping with the enemies' thread - it was made by a gay woman who felt that she was being made to feel unwelcome.

I don't know exactly what the complaint was but I assume it is to do with the lesbophobia terminology used.

I am really sorry if that has upset someone - it is not a word intended as an insult. I only used it in context of an argument about vile thread a few months back. In that thread a MNer (who happened to be gay) stated some very distasteful and triggering views, and a good number of MNers complained about it and rebuked her on the thread. Another MNer (call her X) said that this was a mark of 'lesbophobia' (her words) and that a lot of MNers were homophobic.

This was strongly contested by lots of people - I am not homophibic in the least, and neither are most of us on here, there are plently of long standing gay women on MN, and some were raised in families with gay women, so for a great sweeping statement of 'you lot are lesbophobic' was bloody out of order.

Hence the reference to it on that thread. I am sorry that it was upsetting, it is certainly not a word I use and I only used it in the context of the above. I can see that at best it looks like ignorant flippancy and at worst looks insulting. So please accept my apologies.

Rowan - if you want to delete this thread as you don't want another bunfight please can you forward my apology to the MNer mentioned by you (I am going to report this post but I think this is the best way to communicate directly with MNHQ). Thanks

OP posts:
Maryz · 27/09/2012 13:20

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LineRunner · 27/09/2012 13:30

Do PHSE / Sex Ed lessons even teach what controlling behaviour looks like?

My DC's lessons seem to be about recycling and citizenship.

Maryz · 27/09/2012 13:39

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LineRunner · 27/09/2012 13:52

You're right, Maryz. The PSHE curriclum starts by focusing on 'kind acts'.

Not every kid is positioned in a good place in this discourse to get positive things out of it.

KRITIQ · 27/09/2012 14:34

Really pleased to see how this thread has morphed to a discussion about what all adults need to be doing so children have the best chance to grow, to learn, to develop their sexual identity, to feel genuine respect for themselves and others and to be resilient. This is vital if they are to be able to deal with things life throws at them, able to make informed choices, able to form healthy, safe, equitable and respectful relationships (including sexual ones.)

I'm aware that there are initiatives here and there around the UK, both in schools and in the community, that seek to make this possible, but it's very patchy. In my experience, if the Head Teacher doesn't see it as a priority (and unfortunately, there seems to be the most resistance in faith-based schools,) it simply won't happen. There needs to be more to evaluate the programmes that are there to find out what works best and move towards making initiatives mandatory instead of voluntary, patchy and usually under funded.

Two stories in the news in recent days have been extremely depressing.

There is the report into the handling of child sexual abuse cases in Rochedale where a plethora of concerns were registered with the police, social services and health, but nothing was done. There were professionals who should have known better who did nothing, rationalising that the children were "making their own choices" and that they were engaging in consensual sex.

And, there is the Jeremy Forrester case - the teacher who absconded with his 15 year old student, where evidence is emerging that concerns about the school's poor child protection practice were known as far up the tree as the Secretary of State for Education, Michael Gove, but again, nothing was done.

I've felt a cold chill reading some discussions on t'interwebs particularly about the Forrester case, that seem to express more concern for his well being than the young woman's. There seems to be alot of rationalising that it's really not "that bad" for reasons ranging from the old chestnut about "girls mature faster," to "in some countries, she'd be above the age of consent," to "well, the way girls dress today, men can be forgiven for thinking they are up for it." In one post, a 45 year old man tried to suggest that it's a "good thing" for trusted adults to "introduce" girls to romance, to love, to sex, because it's "normal and natural." I nearly lost my breakfast on that one and you don't want to know what I wrote as a reply! Angry

I've noticed fewer attempts to defend the perpetrators in Rochedale, perhaps because the girls were a year or two younger, but most probably more to do with wanting to believe the fantasy of the teacher-student romance is tickity boo while a bunch of men having sex with the same girl isn't oh, and the Rochedale perpetrators weren't white and middle class, but well . . .

I think there needs to be a mahoooooosive review of our whole approach to child protection across the UK. The system is geared up to deal with mainly younger children who are at risk of harm from a parent, carer or other adult with an element of care responsibilities for them. It just can't deal with the increasing problem of child sexual exploitation. This report from University of Bedfordshire highlights just how badly we are failing children at the moment. Even worse, I'm aware from the researchers that some of the agencies cited in examples of "good practice" are no longer able to carry it out because of cuts to funding.

So in my view, there needs to be implementation across the board of evidence-based initiatives that foster self-respect and healthy relationships, starting from a much younger age than they do now. This needs to be coupled with a major overhaul of child protection policies and services so it can effectively deal with child sexual exploitation and protect young people from violent, controlling relationships (because there often isn't a clean line between the two and perpetrators of both can be in the same age group as victims - not always the classic "older boyfriend.")

It is hard when the young person being abused probably doesn't see anything wrong with what's happening. They'll probably have been "groomed" for some time to be vulnerable to the attentions of the abuser (and it could be argued that the sexualisation of children from a very early age collectively grooms girls to be vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.) The won't necessarily welcome intervention. They'll have already probably bought into the idea that being attractive and sexually pleasing is how you get accepted, how you have a value if you are a girl.

There's also a big piece of work in tackling the attitudes of professionals that girls are just a bit "street wise," rather than victims. That happens in the context of a society that continues to perpetuate rape myths, that still holds victims of sexual abuse as culpable - yes, even when they're a pre-teen girl. Abusers will already have plenty of excuses and feel perfectly justified in what they do. These sorts of attitudes just help to shore that up, to make them feel even more okay about what they choose to do.

Also, I think alot of parents are in the dark about the risks, particularly things related to mobile technology and social networking. I don't feel even the agencies that advise parents on how to deal with stuff really focus on the gendered dimension of abuse and exploitation (that's not to say boys aren't at risk - just it often plays out differently with girls,) so there's a need for a raft of education so parents don't feel they are running to catch up. Here, I've seen so many threads from parents who've found out their daughters are engaged in sexual discussion with people they don't know on line, sharing sexual images of themselves via the web, being sexually bullied and blackmailed. Even parent's who feel they've taken all the precautions, followed all the advice, can still get "caught out."

As a society, we seem so very wary of holding abusive men accountable for their choices and the consequences of their actions. Sadly, this is still often the case when their actions are harmful to children.

Attitudes though take a long time to change. I think more needs to be done at a policy level to compel teachers, police social workers and other professionals responsible for the welfare of children to do things that genuinely put the wellbeing of children at the forefront. Only then can we hope the culture will change fast enough and effectively enough to make a genuine difference.

greenhill · 27/09/2012 14:55

Excellent post kritiq

I've been deliberately avoiding the news recently, but caught some of the reporting of the 15 yo and the teacher case yesterday. Presumably in the role of "devil's advocate" the BBC journalist said: she's 16 next month, surely she can do what she wants then, she's just left a month early and could get married if she wants too (I paraphrase) to the child abuse expert. Fortunately that opinion was given the short shift it deserved.

It is the grooming for many months/ years beforehand that ought to be focused upon, as well as the abuse of trust / abuse of position etc.

Maryz · 27/09/2012 15:10

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greenhill · 27/09/2012 16:15

Exactly maryz it is as if the media focus on the supposedly "spur of the moment / romance of star crossed lovers" idea is actually true.

The reality is that the parents had complained about long standing issues / unease to the school and child protection officials were involved.

LineRunner · 27/09/2012 17:03

As a society, we seem so very wary of holding abusive men accountable for their choices and the consequences of their actions. Sadly, this is still often the case when their actions are harmful to children.

I was definitely brought up in this culture. There was a 'shame' attached to challenging men, full stop.

LineRunner · 27/09/2012 17:03

(That quote from Kritiq's post btw)

OneMoreChap · 27/09/2012 17:18

KRITIQ
(and it could be argued that the sexualisation of children from a very early age collectively grooms girls to be vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.)

This! So much this. I bloody detest this and just get told I'm an arse for thinking it's wrong. Gives [mostly] girls a completely inappropriate system to value themselves and a want to judge other girls to compete for boys; who learn incorrectly that real girls look - and to some extent - behave like hookers and that's how you should value them.

When the girls realise the boys are idiots, they are then easier prey for cunning older twats.

I used to get "Wouldn't your DD be happier in a pretty dress?" Her response, "Nah, it'd get ripped in a tree."

AnyFucker · 27/09/2012 17:42

I tried to "like" kritiq's post on my phone earlier but the bloody contraption wouldn't let me write her name. Great post.

Maryz · 27/09/2012 18:39

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KRITIQ · 27/09/2012 22:12

That was a bit of a soap box offering (and a helluva long one :) ) But, glad it hit home for a few folks.

messyisthenewtidy · 27/09/2012 22:33

That's alright Kritiq - it was worth reading. With the case in the news at the moment, I've seen a lot of comments on how girls of that age make themselves look so much older, as if the man is somehow to be excused for being seduced by it.

It's so infuriating because girls at that age, are just performing fashion, just performing their socially prescribed roles to appear a certain way to get the approval they so need.

MmeLindor · 27/09/2012 23:52

Excellent post, Kritiq. thank you for raising so many valid points.

Controlling behaviour is not confined to sexual relationships, and teaching pre-teens to recognise it could potentially save them from a lot of grief in later life. It is so important that this is taught to young girls, both at school and at home. I agree that it should be part of the national curriculum.

Am going to have a read of the links, and will do a follow up blog post tomorrow, including many of the points raised on this thread.

VintageEbonyGold · 28/09/2012 13:24

To expand slightly on Kritiq's post.

The vulnerable not welcoming or wanting intervention, which is something I've heard perpetuated by senior child protection officers in the media, is misunderstanding the situation.

I say that as I was one of those "street wise" teens. The my judgements at that age were based more on who is the person least likely to assualt/hurt and more likely to provide some food/clothes/etc. You can't distinguish non abuse from abuse as you have no knowledge of it. Iyswim?

VintageEbonyGold · 28/09/2012 13:35

Might make more sense to say, if you have "been groomed" by abuser, not just sexual but controllers etc, you have pretty much determined through experience that most adult behaviours result in some kind of abuse therefore you trust no-one and work off who is exhibiting the least dangerous behaviour, which cuts you off from people who may be able to interveen as their behaviour may resemble the pattern of an abuser.

sorry, not very intellectual

MmeLindor · 28/09/2012 20:49

Vintage
That is really sad. And very difficult to get past that reluctance to engage - for anyone who wants to help.

VintageEbonyGold · 28/09/2012 21:55

I wouldn't say it's a reluctance to engage, it's difficult to explain.

A common experience is "engaging" leads to more abuse, as has been shown with the rochdale cases. The people who are supposed to be helping don't. How are teens supposed to engage with adults who can't/won't help either through their own social limitations or through yet more abusive behaviour.

You can have all the desire to help in the world but if abusers are allowed to carry on abusing teens are not safe engaging and know it.

VintageEbonyGold · 28/09/2012 22:06

I completely agree with the concept of respect being taught in early years and think working from the bottom up is the only way forward.

But, taking in terms of engagement to vulnerable/abused teens is off the mark. When trust is broken is there is no concept of engaging. You see people in degrees of abusiveness and your judgement is based on that.

Someone could be the best person in the world to help but can't due to how much damage has been done.

I'm not explaining properly but want to be able to

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