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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Women subsumed into their children

444 replies

Xenia · 02/09/2012 09:41

We certainly must guard against woman as only mother and nothing else

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0bf95f3c-f234-11e1-bba3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz25Ieiea9E

OP posts:
Ilovedaintynuts · 02/09/2012 12:15

I find it more alarming that one of my Facebook friends uses photos of herself in ever changing pouting poses (that duck face where you point to your mouth?) when she has two beautiful little boys.
A 35 year old pouting seductively versus a 3 year old eating an ice cream. I know which one I prefer.

BeeBee12 · 02/09/2012 12:25

All men have pics of just their kids at one time or another ime.

Asmywhimsytakesme · 02/09/2012 12:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chandon · 02/09/2012 12:29

are you no longer allowed to pout seductively once you are a mum?

can a mum no longer be a sexual being, at all?

peanutMD · 02/09/2012 12:46

Xenia - thanks for clearing that up, I have crossed this section before but got into a but of a virtual scuffle with someone who totally misunderstood my words and twisted it into some extreme feminist view she held so I'm now a bit wary :)

FWIW I didn't actually read the article linked (probably should to be fair) so I just cast my opinion on my thoughts exclusively and from my POV its not so much the losing of identity that worries me but more the use of childrens pictures so freely which is perhaps a totally different issue.

I do respect that to most parents children are the most important thing in their lives and rightfully so but it doesn't mean you have to be defined by it, I am a mum first and foremost of course but I also have hobbies and a job which are also a big part of who I am. I don't have a high flying career by any means infact the work I do is probably classed as menial by most on here but that doesn't mean I don't have anything more to say than stuff about my child.

If the conversation is about children then of course I will happily go on for hours but being called 'DS' mum' by people really does enrage me because I do have an identity of my own!

differentnameforthis · 02/09/2012 13:04

I think she is reading too much into the facebook photos. For the first time since I joined fb (5yrs) I have a picture of my children as my profile pic (I have had them there before, but in a pic with me, this is them alone) it is there simply because I took it & I LOVE it. They are laughing together in a rare show of sisterly love. In a few days no doubt, it will go back to being me, or one of the three of us.

differentnameforthis · 02/09/2012 13:16

How about the advent of cover photos? These are always public & because of that, my daughter's faces are never seen in them. I have a lovely silhouette of them at the beach I use sometimes. At the moment I have one of Travis Fimmel. There is also one of when dd2 & I met Fireman Sam, I could use that. Or one of David Beckham. Or the House of Lords with the Union Jack on it from the Olympics (hate the Olympics, but loved that pis as it reminded me of home - live in Oz). I also had a remembrance one for Anzac Day & will do the same for UK remembrance day. I had a Lancaster Bomber on there once in memorial to my dc's great grandfather who flew bombers in WW2. This was at the time they open the memorial in London.

At Christmas I had a Christmas one. New year - New Year. Etc. Not sure what they says about me!

Greythorne · 02/09/2012 13:19

Chandon
You are overreacting. FB is a public space. Yes women over 35, 45, 75 etc are 'allowed' to be sexual. Whether they want to be perceived by every passing FB acquaintance as sexual is a different matter. And that applies to all ages. So save the sexualised FB headaches full stop.

differentnameforthis · 02/09/2012 13:34

maybenow Your post at 11:59 is..frankly, bollocks! . I don't actually need to SEE the person I am conversing with to know who I am conversing with. I love seeing all the different pictures.

I have one friend who uses lovely abstracts, one who uses her daughter's pictures (i.e one her daughter drew), I have a friend who likes to show off his cars (updates them quite often). I like to see what they feel is important to their lives.

My dad has a collection of all his grandchildren as his profile pic and as far as I am aware NO ONE feels like they are having conversations with toddlers/teens when he posts something! Same goes for my Niece who has someone from some Hunger games show as hers!

Far to many people take facebook too seriously. A couple of years ago I remember a thread bashing women who dared to show a pic of them in their wedding dresses. Not long before that, one where women were criticised for showing one of themselves & their partners.

Oddly enough, I have NEVER seen one where men got slated for having their wives/girlfriends as their profile pics...

differentnameforthis · 02/09/2012 13:38

are you no longer allowed to pout seductively once you are a mum

hahaha! Of course you are...but these ARE NOT seductive. You look stupid if you pout like that, not seductive!

Ilovedaintynuts · 02/09/2012 14:08

*are you no longer allowed to pout seductively once you are a mum?

can a mum no longer be a sexual being, at all?*

Of course you are. Of course you can.

Putting your child's picture as your Facebook avatar or using a picture of yourself pulling a duck face is one of the wonderful things about freedom of choice.

Then some wally comes along and tries to read something 'unhealthy' into using your child's image as your avatar.

So what if women are temporarily 'defined' by their children? Haven't we fought for the choice to have careers, be childless, be what we damn want!

Currently despite having a very satisfying, well-paid management job I choose to be utterly consumed by my two youngest daughters with their gorgeous squidginess, their cheeky smiles and beguiling personalities. I post pictures of them all the time on Facebook, probably to the utter boredom of other people, because I want to and I can't get enough of their image.

I know from experience that feeling wears off. I have a grotty, stroppy 15 year old DS upstairs Smile.

Empusa · 02/09/2012 14:38

I've just had a look through my FB friends list, about 90% of the men on my list who have kids have a photo of their kids as their main photo. The percentage of women with their kids is actually less. Though it appears that about the same percentage of both sexes don't have themselves in their photo at all.

Possibly I just have unusual friends though.

Xenia · 02/09/2012 15:11

I don't even use FB vbut the point about loss of identity for women after children being more common than for men is certainly something for everyone to think about.

There is obviously a moral position that losing self entirely because you are either (a) devoted to God as might be in a convent or (b) that is what you feel is the right place for women is perfectly okay but it always seems to be women not men who make these sacrifices and regret it later.

I agree that both men and women having had their first women can bore for England in going on about their precious little darlings although I adore babies and never let one go by without smiling at it which is one reason I had so many whilst working full time.

OP posts:
Popcornia · 02/09/2012 15:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thumbwitch · 02/09/2012 15:25

Don't really know why I'm bothering to post on this thread but my opinion boils down to "why the fuck do you care what other women do?"

Your choice who you talk to, what about. If you get bored by mothers then don't bother talking to them - I'm sure they'd be equally bored talking about corporate finance/law/politics whatever.

People Are Different. They do not have to conform to some social "ideal" - they should do what suits them. And other people should a) get over it and b) allow them the option to do what suits them.

rosabud · 02/09/2012 15:51

Xenia - do you mean you live on an island near the Equator or you own one?? I think if I owned an island near the equator, I'd probably like to show it off as well!

I don't think fb profile pics really reflect how people view their identity but I do get the point of the article as being, do women lose their identities on becoming mothers and the answer is - of course not because, as she points out in her article, nearly all women do have other dimensions to their lives. The examples she picks out are a little superficial - dinner parties full of women talking kids? Well, for starters they're at a dinner party without their kids - well done them, many parents don't get that chance for quite a few years! I can remember that stage, when my friends and I DID seem to be talking kids all the time but, as someone else has already said, the toddler stage is all consuming and parenting is not easy and so, naturally, it's a big topic of conversation when a group of parents get together. As the years have gone by, our conversations equally seem to be about our jobs, our social lives, our interests etc. However, even back in the toddler days, I think our conversations were balanced with other things!

Also, this myth that we are now organising our lives solely around our children in a way that previous generations didn't is very grating. For every bored child in 1973 there was probably one attending flute/football/art classes 3 times a week and vice versa today. As for the anecdote about the sneakers - if someone came into my home and rudely implied that I was spoiling my children, I would be tempted to give an equally flippant answer.

It IS OK to find motherhood an extremely important role, one that can take over a large part of your life. Feminism should be about recgonizing the importance of motherhood and giving it due respect. I don't think women who choose motherhood - particularly those who choose not to work on another career at the same time - should be made to feel they have chosen the less worthy route.

MarysBeard · 02/09/2012 16:01

Having kids didn't consume my identity but my professional job nearly did, especially after I had kids, but mostly because it was completely wrong for me and also stifling, stressful and most importantly made me try to be someone I am not.

Now I'm working much fewer hours and for myself, at something I like doing, whilst also being at home much more AND also having a lot more time to myself I have started to get my mojo, and my true self, back.

Kids can consume you but so can many other things in life especially doing the wrong job or being in a bad relationship.

MarysBeard · 02/09/2012 16:02

Your choice who you talk to, what about. If you get bored by mothers then don't bother talking to them - I'm sure they'd be equally bored talking about corporate finance/law/politics whatever.

God YES. The more boring thing EVER: Networking with a load of city lawyers. Aaaargh!

Hulababy · 02/09/2012 16:15

Chandon - but those posts aren't sexy in the slightest. No one I know who is above teenage years believes they are sexy, certainly none of the men believe them to be either. They are just very very odd facial expressions and no one any favours. I very much see them as something teen girls do as they know no better so yes, I'd fine it really strange if an older friend of mine was doing it!

chibi · 02/09/2012 16:50

I don't post pics of my children online. I also don't put my own picture up. If we are friends on fb then you already know what I look like, at least what I looked like at that time. I will probably look older and more broken in, but substantially the same.

If you do not already know what I look like, why would you need to know? Such curiosity about strangers is unseemly

hence my profile pic is never me, but is always something like me. Recently it was a cat wearing a limepeel cap. I admired its air of disgruntled dignity.

it is kind of funny to try and make meaningful inferences about other people's profile pics

FamiliesShareGerms · 02/09/2012 17:14

I never post pictures of my daughter on FB, as she is adopted and it's better to be careful. For the same reason I only ever put very occasional, very veiled comments about her in my status updates. I suspect I notice more than most those people who only ever seem to post that Hugo has done his first wee in the potty or Delilah has just grazed her knee etc. Boring and unnecessary!

I think the wider point is that FB pictures etc are symptomatic of those women who somehow cease to exist when they have children, who used to ve able to discuss films and books, but now only know about Postman Pat and the Gruffalo. it's quite easy to become like this, though. I suspect I have been this person on occasion...

FrankieMyDearIDontGiveADamn · 02/09/2012 17:30

I have read this with mild curious interest and overall felt Hmm,. and agree it is making a mountain of of a mole hill.
It's the kind of thing that bugs me about 'feminism'.

I have a massive mixed bag of friends on FB, but it is generally a nattering site not a 'bare my soul and reveal who I really am site.

If I say a profile pic of someone and it is their child, it doesn't even register as an 'issue'.

A mate I went to Uni with talks constantly about her 1st DC, (much, much wanted)
I think no less of her because of it.
And I wonder at the thinking of women who assume that because someone is totally enamoured by their DC's it makes them a less fulfilled human being.

Maybe people would be better off generally if they stopped over analysing other people's life choices and just got on with their own.

Xenia · 02/09/2012 18:01

By the way if anyone has the adoption type issue everyone shoudl remember that you can upload a picture to google images now and it will search the internet for wherever that appears. Also some images contain GPS/location data which I've found useful for work things in tracking people down sometimes.

(RB, yes the island is fun. I don't live on it. They cost less than a villa in Spain but much more exciting and a lot of people think women only get money thruogh sleeping with and marrying men so I think it's important (see women who earn £1k a day thread and women entrepreneur's thread) not so much to show off but to let women know it is very possible to have a large family and earn a lot and love your work and life).

OP posts:
Greythorne · 02/09/2012 21:07

I think Roiphe is mixing various issues.

The parent who did not stop her child squeaking around in her shoes has nothing really to do with feminism or women being subsumed. It's to do with parents of both genders not wishing to upset / discipline their children. There's a term for it in French 'enfant roi'.

rosy71 · 02/09/2012 21:12

I have a picture of ds2 eating an ice cream as my profile picture on facebook. I always use pictures of the boys (sometimes with me in aswell) and all the pictures I post are of them. This is because I want to share those pictures with family and friends. I'd never thought of the profile picture as representing me as a person, more as a way of showing an especially nice or current photo. Perhaps I've been missing the point. Confused.

I've just had a quick look at my friends' pictures. Approximately the same proportion of male and female friends have profile pictures which include their children. All the children are young; I've never seen anyone use a picture of a teenager or adult child in their profile.

Surely it depends what you use facebook for. I would never post about work; it would be unnecessary and unprofessional.

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