For all those who have wondered why mansplaining is even a thing

[FastidiaBlueberry]

I think this article explains quite well, the concept of mansplaining and why it's so bloody irritating.

It's often said that it's "explaining something while being a man". Not quite.

Happy reading.

www.motherjones.com/media/2012/08/problem-men-explaining-things-rebecca-solnit

I know. By 'bitch' I was thinking about the stigma assertive women get.

Most people don't want to be stigmatised just for standing up for their own intelligence, but for women it is highly likely. So I wonder if there is another way for women to do it while avoiding the stigma that's all.

I'm happy to be called a bitch if it means my daughters or granddaughters don't have to live through this Hell I do.

There's hope for the younger generation - this is a good example of attempted mansplaining today, battered away with grace by the new young female intern
Intern: "I have a query"
Mansplainer: "I will only answer it if it relates to history"

The stigma 'attached' to assertive women (i.e. attached to the befuddled little brains of 'people' who are afraid of/annoyed by assertive women) would be greatly lessened if more women could shamelessly bring themselves to be more assertive. Which means not worrying about being seen as a 'bitch' (unless, of course, you are in fact being a bitch but want to be in denial about it).

Good one LastMango (great name). Thinking about it, a senior colleague of mine (senior enough to get away with it) barks 'Moving on!' at people quite a bit...

The only tactic I ever want to use is stare at speaker a bit too long, then say 'Thank you for that' and move on, but while fun to think about it is too arsey for use in most work situations.

Lurking

.... and many other good things beside!

Well said!

'Moving on'

Love it!

... And now I must move on! This thread's turning out lovely! And on a Friday too!

I don't think all men do this but there's a specific type who do. Exp and most of his army mates did it constantly in relation to my job primarily. I'm a SW doing a masters and considering a phd. Not that huge in my circles of many female docs but these guys couldn't help themselves and felt thru had to make patronising comments at every opportunity 'you can't help everyone you know (sneer)' being a favourite.
I have never once had any of this from women. Ever.
I have also never had any mansplaining done (yet) by any of the men I work with (who are numerous and varied). I suspect it's because they have worked in a female dominated environment (though an academic one) for many years plus there are less of them so there is much less bloke camaraderie etc. Also (in praise of some fab male colleagues) I think you have to be comfortable with yourself to work mainly with women (if you are a man). I hope I explained that well enough.

MooncupGoddess "Oh I would LOVE a mansplaining campaign. Maybe a poster featuring a rotund 50-something male hectoring a female colleague, with a strapline: 'Is your explanation really necessary?"

That is brilliant

Interesting thread.

I was trying to think of an opposite to mansplaining. As a dad, I have had my now ExP explain to me about baby care, child care, how to do the washing, put clothes out etc in a very patroninsing way when I know perfectly well what to do - but she thought I couldn't possibly know because "I am a man". It is annoying when people try to explain things to you and tell you how to do stuff when they assume you don't know because of your status.

I'm sure none of the feminists on here do that to their OH, do they :)

mango "The stigma 'attached' to assertive women (i.e. attached to the befuddled little brains of 'people' who are afraid of/annoyed by assertive women) would be greatly lessened if more women could shamelessly bring themselves to be more assertive. Which means not worrying about being seen as a 'bitch' (unless, of course, you are in fact being a bitch but want to be in denial about it)."

It is a bit unfair to but the onus of this entirely on women. A supportive environment and culture would make it easier to be 'shamelessly assertive', and there's nothing supportive about knowing you'll be stigmatised rather than praised for something.

lurking "I'm happy to be called a bitch if it means my daughters or granddaughters don't have to live through this Hell I do."

I agree with you, but I would like to create an environment where my daughters or granddaughters don't get called bitch for being shamelessly assertive.

cantthinkofadadsname Yes agreed I do explain things to DH and he does bristle with annoyance before I've even really started, saying "Yes I DO know", and then he does loads of things that shows he doesn't actually know, he just hates being explained to, and annoyingly this creates more work for me grrrr!

(I'd give you examples but I'd just p*ss myself off too much so I'll leave it there)

FoodUnit - I think the best way to create that environment is to be assertive. So that that becomes a norm rather than an exception, or something women feel they have to 'think twice' about.
I don't think there's a better alternative. Can you suggest one?

Have just skim-read thread, but someone in my extended family does this par excellence! He started a conversation the other day about an event I'd been to recently, then proceeded to tell me all about it (he's never been to it), didn't ask a single substantive question, and described it in terms that were way off-beam. What can you say, other than, 'no, you're wrong'?

Also, FoodUnit (I'm going in a minute, honest...)
knowing you'll be stigmatised - but in reality, when we're assertive we get things done, solve things, move things on. That might result in us being stigmatised by some fruitcake(s) somewhere, and sometimes their fear or anger is presented in horrible 'in your face'-type ways. But generally assertiveness increases the chaces of success, which increases the chances of being congratulated, rewarded, etc.
So it creates its own 'supportive environment', no?

Cantthink....I have never told AA. He is incapable due to gender. I have heard my exp make excuses for being incompetent 'because I'm a man' - which is just sexist

"I think the best way to create that environment is to be assertive. So that that becomes a norm rather than an exception, or something women feel they have to 'think twice' about. I don't think there's a better alternative. Can you suggest one?"

Well you're talking about a cultural change, and one of the methods is by individual women trailblazing and acting as role-models in the way you describe, but I think sharing and group actions can help, awareness raising, etc. So I wouldn't say there is just 'one' way to do it, and I certainly think it is a high risk strategy to put 'all your eggs in one basket'. I'd favour a multiplicity of approaches.

Methods like saying 'moving on' are good, but obviously not effective in all situations - you have to have a degree of power to get away with it.

"But generally assertiveness increases the chances of success, which increases the chances of being congratulated, rewarded, etc. So it creates its own 'supportive environment', no?"

I would agree in many cases, but it is a bit much to say to someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth (as is not uncommon for girl children) to say - "Just be assertive - then it will all happen.... all the support you need will come to you". Because actually, thinking about it, she might also get jealous digs and bullying too for her successes and a lot of being labelled bitch and isolation along her way.

Also, there is evidence that women are penalized at work (passed over for promotions, raises, being put in charge of big projects) for assertive behaviour because they are not seen as being 'team players'. The same behaviour in men (salary negotiations, asking for raises, taking the lead) is seen as excellent leadership behaviour, and rewarded financially.

So when women aren't assertive at work, they are acting in their own (personal, immediate) best interests. It's no good trailblazing away for the good of future generations if it gets you fired and you can't pay the mortgage.
And women have to walk this delicate line all the time. No wonder I feel so tired...

FoodUnit - on sharing, group actions, awareness raising, etc. yy, yy and yy again!

WRT someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth - Of course there is some support in schools for children who need it. I wish there were more resources. I think the shortfall of resources in education is a massive problem in England. I know PHSE provides for this, there are some superb teachers, but they need to be better resourced.

blackcurrants - I agree also. In reality noone who isn't fairly high status and also very well liked/recognised as 'a bit of a joker' could get away with 'Moving on!' in the workplace. And I hear what you're saying WRT assertive women in the workplace and understand that in some environments that can be a massive problem (and, come to think of it, for me, if I hadn't had a few very, very impressive, intelligent, supportive and sharp-eyed women as senior colleagues then that fate would very likely have befallen me). In theory, of course, when this happens we could approach HR, claim discrimination, but in practice very, very few of us want to risk that route. So... back to group actions, etc?

Perhaps, also, though, a reclaiming of "assertive" - and distinguishing it clearly from "noisy", "obtrusive" etc. - and associating it more with "efficient", "intelligent", "steamlined" (and the status and rewards that those qualities should bring) might help free it from its (undeserved) association with traditionally 'masculine' qualities.

Hope that makes some sense.

However (and please bear with me, FoodUnit, I am not some evil anti-feminist planted by MRA trolls), I think it's also worth pointing out - perhaps in support groups? - that being 'assertive' and taking risks/knocks that go with it is very, very unlikely to be 'comfortable' experience.

An anecdote: I managed to (finally) close a deal earlier this week. In doing this I armed a vile but not unusual buyer with what I am sure he perceives as a wealth of anecdotal ammunition about my bitchy, whinging, spoilt, hysterical, shrill, harsh - but probably very, very 'feminine' (or 'womanish' in it's most distasteful sense, to a misogynist, IYSWIM) character. And the string of emails between him and an associate which he kindly forwarded to me and several (male) colleagues show this very plainly indeed. And I had a few moments imagining (male) colleagues nodding and agreeing with him, and that did not feel pleasant. But at the end of the day, I what we wanted from the little fucker where none of my (male) colleagues had managed to. And that success overrides by a long way whatever pathetic snidey remarks about almost certainly were exchanged, and probably will continue to be.

FoodUnit Fri 31-Aug-12 17:19:04
...I do explain things to DH and he does bristle with annoyance before I've even really started, saying "Yes I DO know", and then he does loads of things that shows he doesn't actually know, he just hates being explained to...

"I explain things to my wife and she gets really shirty, and then she shows she really can't program the Sky+, she just won't listen..."

OneMoreChap "I explain things to my wife and she gets really shirty, and then she shows she really can't program the Sky+, she just won't listen..."

But does this create more work for you? Probably not, maybe she just wants to work it out herself. Both DH and I like to work stuff out for ourselves as a general rule. Interestingly though, my DH is brilliant at explaining tech and I imagine it is because he is an industry expert that it never come across as mansplainy.

lastmango "WRT someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth - Of course there is some support in schools for children who need it."

But since this is very gendered (girls are more than twice as likely to be emotionally abused as boys), there needs to be more done to prevent the abuse. More needs to be done to change negative attitudes towards having female children.

"Perhaps, also, though, a reclaiming of "assertive" - and distinguishing it clearly from "noisy", "obtrusive" etc. - and associating it more with "efficient", "intelligent", "streamlined"
I agree with this, there also needs to be challenges to the ubiquitous stereotyping and relentless presentation of females as submissive/passive/there to be taken & used that wallpapers our world. More presentation of assertive females as 'normal' would mean women themselves and those observing/interacting with them are less likely to think she is 'getting ideas above her station' or 'stepping outside her box', etc when she is assertive, which leads to the slurs and fear of being labelled with them.

"I think it's also worth pointing out - perhaps in support groups? - that being 'assertive' and taking risks/knocks that go with it is very, very unlikely to be 'comfortable' experience."

Sure, in any arena it is tough for people with confidence systematically demolished to weather adversity and conflict in the aftermath of displays of assertion and still come out on top. (you have to have ego strength to not come across as 'defensive' or 'unlikeable' ie- you have to be/feel already valued) In a sense females as a class are continually having their confidence systematically demolished by stereotyping, abuse, exploitation, etc. This climate makes it tough for both trailblazers and followers in their wake.

We need to end the low status of women that male dominance depends upon. And that means both encouraging women as a class and restraining the class of men.

as you apparently have not guessed, Food Unit, I don't explain to things to my wife like that.

FoodUnit Fri 31-Aug-12 17:19:04
I do explain things to DH and he does bristle with annoyance before I've even really started, saying "Yes I DO know", and then he does loads of things that shows he doesn't actually know, he just hates being explained to

I was wondering how it would sound if I said something about my wife - the way you spoke of your DH.