Love marriages banned in Indian village

[AnnieLobeseder]

More erosion of women's rights, this time in India.

But I guess with the huge erosion that's going on the US at the moment over the elections, it's hardly surprising that other parts of the world are following their lead.

Accuracyrequired: the story has been picked up worldwide now actually. I think the earliest source was Indian Express and NDTV then picked up by the AFP newswire. All grist to the mill.

I think the more we all blither on about it the more it helps, at least until Indian women can sort themselves out.

Annie: I'm familiar with the Chinese situation as it was really starting to emerge when I was working in Beijing in the 1990s. Didn't mention it as I wanted to stick with India. But since you mention China I wonder if any European politicians signal their disapproval to Indian politicians in the way they do about human rights when involved in diplomacy with Chinese politicians. Now that would be a fine thing, but I doubts it crosses their radar.

Thanks Grimble.

crescentmoon - I think you're right to point out that the economics of dowry is a huge factor. I'd say that what needs to be tackled is the bare economic truth that having a girl is not as profitable as having a boy. This is down to dowry and the fact that a boy will bring more money in as well as stay within the family after his marriage.

It's good that dowry is being challenged on the ground by men such as these: YAD(Youths against Dowry) and it's heartwarming to see so many men sign a pledge against it and recognise it for the destructive system that it is.

Dowry is illegal in India, I believe. Highlights the difficulty of effecting change as it goes on regardless.

Also highlights why inter-governmental representations are sometimes irrelevant, as central government has made the change but it is too culturally ingrained.

Also illegal is for a medical practitioner to tell the parents the sex of the baby.

Yes indeed. Dowry has been illegal in India for a long time, but it's very difficult to stamp it out. :(

I don't think it's so much that having a girl is not as profitable as having a boy. I think it is viewed that having a girl is expensive and that they effectively become part of someone else's family when married. To carry on your family, a boy is seen as a necessity.

With regards to cheating, I don't think it's common place for women. Although equally, I'm not aware of any men that do it but as mentioned, alcohol and gambling are issues.

Education and job opportunities have certainly helped my nieces to fight against tradition and what is "expected" of them. However, children in general and very much in India are brought up not to question their parents and are indebted to them. This makes change very hard unless you are extremely strong willed and self assured. One of my sisters married for love when it was almost unheard of in her community... Due to the fact she had my dads support as he has long broken away from the culture he was born into. He was born in a tiny village but his dad was a teacher and respected member of the army. Dad was betrothed at birth and married at 13. He left India to study medicine and his heart never returned. He left wife, again unheard of. I don't condone it but he knew living in India would hold him back personally and professionally. My other sister didn't want to get married, she is highly educated and after what she saw happened to her mum and dad, she was against it. However, when she got to 24, her mum who is uneducated and has nothing but her children to show her self worth, threatened suicide if my sister didn't get married. My dad found an educated man living in US and my sister liked him. Both my sisters are now happily married. I really think things are changing, my nieces have very different outlooks and prospects fro happiness than their grand mother. Sorry that was long but my point is there is positivity but it needs to happen within the society not by outsiders declaring what should happen. When people have conflicting ideals and beliefs, change is slow. It causes much pain and takes courage to turn your back on your upbringing even when you know it's for you best interest. Some people would rather please their parents and see them die happy than pursue self interest. It's a very complex situation but it is improving, slowly but surely.

Dowry almost certainly still happens unless the mans parents are forward thinking and self sufficient or don't need the money. When your son marries, you effectively take on another child. I know all this is no excuse, just trying to explain the different perspectives.

Other issue is medicine in India is very advanced if you have money but the ethics surrounding it are not well enforced.

By the way, India consists of Hindus, Muslims, Catholics and Christians and other religions. The culture is not always nearly tied to their religious beliefs although they form a massive part of it.

And of course Sikhism.

You have to remember, in India, families are big communities of people of all different ages and positions of power within. This is part of the reason why it's difficult to live your live by your own standards... You are constantly judged and so are your family. Not like here, I'm not married but live and have a child with my partner... There's no pressure on me to do otherwise... In India it would cause untold hassle for my family.

Sorry, I had lots to say on this topic and haven't had a chance to post all day... So you got it all in one go! :)

Just one last point...my Half sister mother can't read and doesn't have tv, she has no way to educate herself about these topics... She is just living the way she knows... But it has exerted influence on my sisters who are highly educated and have lived in the uk and US. Funnily, they prefer life in India as to them there are many upsides to Indian culture along with the downsides.

I have not tea all posts but just trying to answer some questions raised here.
annie, arranged marriage does not mean 'forced' marriage. The concept is just like how in the west, people go on dating sites to find their partners. Instead of dating sites (which are also very popular in India), parents act as go betweens or the 'introducers'. The girl and the boy both have a choice to either say yes or no. Kim of like how the royal family here marry.

Tea=read!!!

Yeah, I think that over time I've changed my mind about arranged marriages. Of course, being from the West, I've been brought up to see them as old-fashioned and love marriages as the ideal to aspire to.

But now I see them more as Silli describes - with the parents (who hopefully have your best interests at heart) finding potential partners who they feel are suitable. And love marriages don't exactly have a high rate of success themselve.

The problems begin when the parents do exert force over their children but that doesn't have to do with arranged marriages per se. Or when the roles within the marriage put the wife in submission to the husband, but once again that has more to do with patriarchy than the actual practice of arranged marriages.

silibili, I agree that's how arranged marriages work among educated city dwellers (and Indian diaspora communities overseas), and many of the arranged marriages I know work very well. However, it isn't usually how they work in more rural communities, where the women still have very little say in the matter. They are not necessarily forced marriages as such - the women rarely put up much resistance, they just don't expect to have any much input into the decision.

One of my nieces didn't even meet her husband before marriage, and the others never really spoke to theirs. They would not have dreamt of rejecting the choices made by their parents, though I'd like to think they wouldn't have been forced into anything had they chosen to put up a fight.

Jinsei, in your experence what are the criteria that your siblings have used to choose suitable partners for your nieces? And, is it normal to have a big age gap or is that frowned upon?

Thank you for pointing out the difference, silibili, I was thinking along the lines of forced rather than arranged marriages.

But from what Jinsei describes, it seems that the line between the two is often quite blurry. These marriages may not be forced in the literal sense, but the woman (and I suppose, the man too) doesn't seem to have a great deal of choice.

It's my in-laws rather than my siblings. There are various factors that are considered. In no particular order, these include caste (always same as our family); family wealth (and especially how much land they own - it's a farming community); clan (cannot marry into family with same surname, same maiden name as mother etc); general character of the family (ie do the parents generally share the same outlook on life); number of boys in the family (will the girl be the only DIL and therefore get all of the work); position of the boy in family (wives of older sons higher in status than wives of younger sons); location of family home; general character and health of the boy; and more recently, education and career prospects of the boy.

There is very little thought given to the compatibility of the couple. Marriage is as much a union between two families as between two individuals. It is just assumed that the husband and wife will try to get on. Big age differences are unusual in our community, and both boys and girls typically marry in their late teens/early twenties.

The man often doesn't get much choice either, OP, you're right. But it is much easier for men to break away from their parents than it is for women. Also, it's easier for men to leave the village prior to marriage, and so they would have more opportunity to meet and fall in love with someone of their own choosing. Girls have fewer such opportunities, especially as it would be very taboo to marry someone from your own village - almost like incest.

The criteria for choosing brides is very similar btw, but physical appearance plays a much bigger part in the decision. And in our family at least, the boy gets an opportunity to veto on the basis of photographs.

Oh dear Jinsei, it seems my idea of arranged marriages were a bit idealistic.
Can I be really cheeky and ask you one one last question? You said about the difference in status between the wives based on the relative age of the brothers they marry. The stereotypical view is that there is a lot of infighting between the wives (who I assume are unrelated and therefore not as bound by blood loyalties). Would you say there is a tendency for this to happen? My tutor at uni used to go on about how the wives would often tear a family apart. My fledgling inner feminist was but I didn't have any knowledge/experience with which to refute it.

Religion also plays a significant role in arranged marriages. My niece who is Hindu has just married a catholic, which caused quite a stir.