Love marriages banned in Indian village

[AnnieLobeseder]

More erosion of women's rights, this time in India.

But I guess with the huge erosion that's going on the US at the moment over the elections, it's hardly surprising that other parts of the world are following their lead.

Elephants, I have asked a question of Ecletic. I am beginning to understand now. There is literally no understanding of the difficulties here and absolutely no desire to discuss them.

"Can you not see how you're guilty of the very same thing of which you are accusing the rest of us? It's baffling."

I wasn't accusing you before, I was interested, I wanted to have a discussion, it's a real difficulty for me.

I'm definitely accusing you now though, of over-simplifying, of being hostile, of a lack of interest in how to move further than tutting.

I seem to remember the conversation was going nicely until you barged in and started telling us all what to do. Sorry, but do you seriously think we should form an action squad on every anti-women story raised on this board? It would take a feminist militia far in excess of the Olympic security contingent. The problem is just too big, the issues to many, the number of villages must number tens of thousands, the governments actively oppressing women must number many tens. But you think we should jump into action on this particular village immediately. Really?

We do understand the difficulties. But given that they are so complex, and so far removed from our Western cultural expectations and experiences, what on earth is the point of us discussing them?

Please tell us what we are allowed to discuss?

I didn't say anything about an action squad. I said while deploring it feminists should consider the colonial implications of trying to change things.

If feminism is about sitting around saying things are awful but then fine, go ahead. I don't think it's about that, nor do I think it's about wading in and telling people what to do. It's a fine balance, a difficulty, a tremendously sensitive problem, and point-scoring and snarkiness are a crazy response if you really expect to be taken seriously.

Cross post. Yes, I'm feeling hostile. In response to posts from you that I am interpreting as attacks. And while I think you were genuinely trying to stimulate deeper debate on the subject, speaking for myself, I feel you've only completely derailed it. I have lost interest in moving the subject along in response to being told that I'm not interested enough.

No, I'm sorry, there was no interest in the difficulty and the complexity. There is now, but there wasn't then, there was just hostility to the fact that I'd raised it.

You were not moving the subject along. I wanted to move it along and I got attacked for it.

And it's not a hostility borne of what's happened since. It was there right at the start.

Very well done, you've seen off somebody else. Was this always the plan?

I too have close female relatives living in villages in rural India, and I've spent a lot of time in these villages over the years. I think that the formalisation of these restrictions is cause for serious concern, as it does represent a rolling back of women's rights, which are limited enough already.

I believe that the village in question is in UP, where there is a substantial Muslim population, so I don't know if religion may be a factor here - sorry, as I have only skimmed the article. However, it's still very common practice for Hindu women in northern areas to cover their faces in front of older men, so it is just as likely to be cultural.

In the villages where I have spent time, it's perfectly normal for women to go out unaccompanied in the village, and indeed, it would be almost impossible for them to avoid this. However, it would be unusual for them to leave the village unaccompanied. So I get what eclectic is trying to say. These women have been bound by social restrictions for generations.

However, knowing that certain behaviours will be socially frowned upon is rather different from knowing that those same behaviours are formally prohibited, and so I think this development is worthy of note. Thankfully, I think that the Indian law will override the panchayat's rulings in any case, but it's still a very backward move on their part.

There are groups working to promote women's rights in the rural areas, but in my experience, they are poorly funded, often poorly organised and tend to focus more on helping women in the most desperate situations - they don't always have the resources to focus on the bigger picture. There are feminist movements in Indian cities too, but I would hazard a guess that many educated Indian city dwellers know little more about the lives of rural women than the average Brit!

Thanks Jinsei that was like a drink of water. Do you think caste discrimimation plays any role in sexual discrimination?

Jinsei - would the Indian authorities have any cause to pay attention to how any individual village is treating its women, even if that treatment is outside the national law, unless they were specifically alerted to it? The article say that police are investigating. But in your experience, is any action likely to be taken?

this is interesting -- UP chief minister (female) accused of responsibility for the plight of women in the state

an example is given:
(Rahul Gandhi speech)
"With a view to ensure participation of women right down to the grassroots level, the Congress party made it a point to give reservation to women in panchayats, but that was not being implemented in the true spirit in this state," he added.

Citing a glaring example of injustice against women in UP, Rahul claimed, "I was told by an old women how her agricultural land was forcible acquired for some builders. When the builder demanded immediate vacation of the plot, the woman went with a complaint to the local police station. The cops not only refused to intervene but also went to the extent of setting fire to the standing crop on the poor woman's land."

AR - interesting that you feel that simply having a woman in a position of political influence means that women's interests will be defended. Surely you know this isn't the case? What a very simplistic view of the realities of politics in India you must have.

Hard to say, accuracy. The lower caste women are certainly more discriminated against, but I think that's just because they're at the bottom of the heap on two counts. Certainly, the higher caste women get a pretty raw deal too in my view, but there are some horrendous stories in the Indian press about lower caste women being raped because of their caste. :(

Thankfully, caste isn't too huge an issue in our area, so I can't really comment in an informed way - I mean, it is an issue, but it's all relative, and I certainly haven't seen the same sort of caste discrimination there as I have heard about elsewhere.

"You were not moving the subject along. I wanted to move it along and I got attacked for it."

No offense but you got attacked because your posts were pretentious and condescending. I've never seen such a weird derailment. Who are you to decide which posts are "hot air" and which are worthy of your praise.

People were discussing because they were upset. They probably would have moved onto discussing the best ways for things to change if you hadn't come on with your holier-than-thou attitude.

OP, I think the Indian government is much more likely to enforce its own laws now that the national and international media are on the case.

Part of the problem is that India is just so enormous, it's very difficult to govern effectively. The local officials are usually from that same rural culture, and probably haven't been exposed to much else. But the Indian media these days is getting better and better at exposing stuff like this, and I think the effects of this will snowball over time, as women will slowly gain more awareness.

Jinsei I've seen that casual sex discrimination is part of everyday life, ever moment of every day, and I felt very angry but powerless. I did and do judge but particularly as a guest (I was an immigrant there for a while) it felt completely wrong sometimes to do so, particularly as a lot of the discrimination is reinforced by women at every level. Once, a woman was killed as she drove home from her job as a journalist ; the reaction of the authorities in DELHI was to publicly warn women to limit their actitivities, including their professional activity.

How are western femninists supposed to respond to this. I just don't know.

Why are you on the attack pacifist. I mentioned earlier in the thread about women who do rise in India to powerful positions kicking away the ladder. I don't have a simplistic view and here is the hostiity again. Is this just a tiny little club and everyone else can piss off because that's the impression I'm getting.

And if I remember rightly the person that gave that warning to women was Sheila Dikshit

It only seemed pretentious if you don't understand a more complex sentence structure and longer words. That doesn't mean it actually is more pretentious. If I ever (unlikely) approach this board again I'll remember to dumb down.

Is it possible that this village passing 'laws' to reinforce traditional oppression of women might be a knee-jerk reaction to women in the area developing a sense of self and starting to want to assert their rights? Women may be turning from these traditions, possibly in response to, as Jinsei says, condemnation of oppression in the media? In that case, in a sick kind of way, it's encouraging. This may only be an attempt to curb an uprising of women that hopefully, with the backing of the central government, will fail. (I mean that the curbing will fail, not the uprising)

Hahaha it's a real shame because a lot of what you're saying is interesting, and I'm usually one to be saying "yes but what do we DO?", but you are interspersing your comments with such unfounded and outrageous rudeness towards all the other posters here and then acting hurt when people react negatively.

"But the Indian media these days is getting better and better at exposing stuff like this"

very good point, the tabloid version of HT seemed to be getting quite campaigning in various ways