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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fifty Shades

159 replies

neveravictim · 23/06/2012 22:09

I know this has been talked about alot but just wanted some advice. As a victim of rape the idea of submissive sex makes me feel very uncomfortable but all my friends are reading this. So do you think it is a book I should read too. Is t really about women's empowerment? Have nc btw. Thank you x

OP posts:
AliceHurled · 25/06/2012 21:40

I've got experience of BDSM. Zero safe words, used as a form of abuse, legitimated by being able to show me pictures of it happening, books about it, and saying 'but look at those people over there doing it, it must be fine'. It's great Hmm Wonderful it's being even more mainstreamed.

thechairmanmeow · 25/06/2012 21:49

hello again pubes
well it's very little for me in RL
online i play.
like i said, i have a good marrage, i'm not 'trapped' in a vanilla marage, i dont feel like i'm missing out, if, for whatever reason i found myself single i would go and check out the clubs in Rl, but as my mild compulsion is satisfied online, i wouldnt consider jepardising my marrage for that.

is that the answer to what you were asking?

CaramelTree · 25/06/2012 23:25

'I know someone who is collared and in a D/s relationship, she and her fiance have been together for over 10 years.. and really, in that relationship is actually the sub who has all the power, because the Dom can only do things with their consent.

The minute a sub declares its off limits, it stops, no question, because not to do so would violate the terms of the agreement because while a sub agree's to certain things, the Dom also has to agree to put the subs needs first.'

I do not understand this. How does the sub have all the power? The dom can only do thingss with the sub's consent, but surely the sub can only have things done to them with the dom's consent. So If the sub decides they want the dom to cut the sub's hair into a new style with a pair of garden secateurs, presumably the dom could then say that actually they have no sexual interest in either hairdressing or gardening tools, and have a bit of a phobia of sharp objects, so will not be participating in such an event.

Or does the dom have to do whatever the sub wants, in order to put the 'sub's needs first' in which case that is not really consent either?

I can't see how the underlying consent concerning specific acts is different from any other type of non BDSM sexual behaviour. The issue is surely why people want to engage in behaviour that involves violence, power or the sexualisation of consent itself, and if those acts are more or less prone to creation and/or perpetuation of abusive relationships, or cause psychological developments that are damaging to the people in the relationship or to the way they relate to the wider world.

GothAnneGeddes · 25/06/2012 23:40

For an in depth look at the issues of rape culture within the BDSM community, by someone familiar with BDSM, this is an interesting read (Trigger Warning: rape, abuse) www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/06/20/20993/

To summarise the post for those who don't want to read it, there are issues in the BDSM community and the community is too keen at covering things up for the "general good".

GothAnneGeddes · 25/06/2012 23:41

Betty - Shades of Grey by Jasper Fforde is amazing! A seriously fabulous book!.

thechairmanmeow · 26/06/2012 06:04

i think it's worth mentioning ( if no one else has yet, i'm not sure) that part of 50 shades success is down to the E book reader. no one knows what your reading on the bus.

WicketyPitch · 26/06/2012 08:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 26/06/2012 08:23

is that the answer to what you were asking?

Not really, chairman, let me rephrase the question - what is it about hurting and dominating women that turns you on?

Does your DW have a good marriage too? Does she know about your online 'games'?

CardgamesFTW · 26/06/2012 08:28

"they have to take care of them, protect them...etc hurting them would actually be against the agreement"

Not hurt them huh? Well doesn't that sound sweet and romantic and cuddly. In fact, it doesn't sound like sadism at all.

AliceHurled · 26/06/2012 08:53

So just like any relationship there are discussions of consent. And just like in any they may go well or they may not. And just like in any relationship they are subject to all sorts of internal and external pressures that affect this consent. Only in this relationship the whole context is around a sexualisation of power and violence. Sounds wonderful. Can't imagine how my experiences turned out so wrong Hmm I have seen it first hand, it is not all about this rarified space of the 'scene'. Of course for some it could be, of course. My current relationship is pretty wonderful so manages to avoid all sorts of crap too. However to suggest this the case in the whole of the BDSM world, or the whole of my nonBDSM world us naive. Difference is of course, if something goes wrong in an environment that sexualises power and violence it goes pretty wrong.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 26/06/2012 09:04

I'd be interested in what people think of this, because it rang a few bells for me:

What women claim to get out of the BDSM experience is the euphoria of transcendence. They talk of a sense of stillness and peace, of sharpened mental faculties in the days after being involved in a ?scene?, an ability to think more clearly, of being better able to focus on the mundane tasks allocated to them, and of finding it easier to meet their obligations.

So what exactly are they transcending? The answer has to be daily life and ?vanilla? sex. Vanilla sex is a derogative term used by BDSMers to describe the once-a-week-with-the-light-out sex that long term heterosexual couples are said to engage in. It is boring, goes the argument.

I?ve no doubt that it is.

Having coerced, obligatory PIV once a week with one Nigel is indeed very boring. This practice is not connected in any way to innate female sexuality, however, but is one of the demands patriarchy places upon women i.e. to sexually serve one man. And let?s not forget that men?as a group? are notoriously incompetent in the bedroom, which is another reason why women are prone to feigning headaches, or lying back and thinking of England.

Compared to this, BDSM does seem like an exciting alternative.

BDSM, then, is the solution patriarchy offers to women in place of the joyless, mundane, sexuality-less intercourse-posing-as-sex that women have to be ?up for? unless they want to be labelled frigid.

And what is daily life to women, except patriarchal oppression? If an endorphin high frees women up in some way to enjoy their lives?.. then what does this tell us about women?s lives?

Could it be, that women?s lives are unbearable and that the outer-body experience offered by being a sub is a short-term escape? Sub women talk of the sense of being unable to move when restrained and how this feeling frees them from having to think?

It. frees. women. from. having. to. think.

Women are the busy-bees of the human race, doing all the work that makes life worth living. They?re the ones with the shopping lists in their heads, the itinery of household stock to account for, the kids? birthday parties to organize. They are the office tea-ladies, the carers, the till staff at the supermarket check-out, the toilet cleaners, the P.As to Big Men?Women daren?t stop running on the hamster?s wheel because they?re not quite sure where they will land if they fall, but they?ve got a sneaking suspicion it will be someplace worse than they are right now. Women?s lives are constructed to be empty.

BDSM is the final solution offered by the very people who have caused the problem in the first place. Like shopping, it is a legitimized outlet for female frustration and rage.

CurrySpice · 26/06/2012 09:11

I hope the op is ok while you all have this discussion. She did ask a specific and personal question. And while I know threads do develop, I find it odd that so few of you actually addressed her concerns at all even with a word of comfort before starting your debate Sad

neveravictim · 26/06/2012 10:32

Thank you curry

OP posts:
CurrySpice · 26/06/2012 10:52

No worries never :)

Did you see my advice up there? In a nutshell, I wouldn't if I were you!

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 26/06/2012 10:55

Sorry, never, I got carried away. I hope you're Ok, and you Alice and anybody else who is hurt by this x

neveravictim · 26/06/2012 11:02

No worries pubes and curry, I think I'll leave the book to everyone else. Cant be arsed bringing up old memories

OP posts:
AliceHurled · 26/06/2012 11:27

Good call curry. My apologies for adding to it never.

My advice would be, for sure you don't have to read it, it's a pile of crap, and it might well be triggering. However to give an extra bit of personal experience, I have been known to read stuff associated with my past experiences because it can help my mind to deal with it and almost demystify it. A few years ago I wouldn't have gone near anything to do with it, now I can more because it's less of an 'over there' thing I can't deal with iyswim. Depends entirely on you, where you're at with your journey etc. But don't feel you should, nor that you shouldn't iyswim.

And thanks pubes

AliceHurled · 26/06/2012 11:28

That was an xpost never. Your instinct will be right.

CurrySpice · 26/06/2012 11:29

Alice I think those are very wise words :)

carernotasaint · 26/06/2012 17:25

Ive just seem one of those "Keep Calm" type things a friend has put on facebook.
The crown still sits at the top but underneath is written.....
Cry
because
Christian Grey
is fictional. FFS

thechairmanmeow · 26/06/2012 17:36

pubes
"what is it about hurting and dominating women that turns you on?"

well bugger me! you have assumed rather alot havent you?

thechairmanmeow · 26/06/2012 17:41

your copy and paste italics are simply written by someone who dislikes men and doesnt get BDSM
the coerced weekly piv sex by with the man who's notoriously incompetant in the bedroom.

the patriachy offers this do they? was there a meeting where this was discussed?

has it ever occurd to you that the subs came first? it's their fantasy, the doms just are oppertunists . this isnt a chicken and egg senario, without the subs the dom/mes become inert.

TheLightPassenger · 26/06/2012 18:13

never, I came back to this thread today, as rather than getting into the nitty grit of how shite this book appears to be, I wanted to offer my support, in encouraging you to follow your instincts - which are to avoid something that might upset/trigger you. Surely more "empowerful" to read/do something you enjoy whether it's read War and Peace, knitting, cuddling a kittne or watching the Simpsons.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 26/06/2012 18:23

gosh those doms are a selfless lot, aren't they? Hmm

I'd love to stay and discuss this further chairman but I really don't think it's appropriate on what was started as a support thread, so I'm bowing out. See you on the next thread where BDSM comes up I expect.

solidgoldbrass · 26/06/2012 20:50

The biggest problem with the 'mainstreaming' of the scene is that people who were not, perhaps, initially or instinctively inclined towards it are getting the idea that all BDSM is about men controlling/topping/Doing It To women, when the BDSM scene I started out in was far more pansexual, far more weighted towards female domination (Yeah yeah, you might percieve that as still pandering to the patriarchy but it's not the woman getting nipple clamps and crop marks on her arse in a femdom situation, is it?). I am still generally inclined to think that there's less risk of getting into an abuse situation if you get involved in the public/social side of the BDSM scene because everyone talks so much about consent, attitudes, ethics. Whereas women who are given little or no access to discussions about sexuality put up with the most appalling treatment in outwardly conventional, traditional marriages, because their abusers tell them that whatever horror they are inflicting on their wives is 'normal'. ONe of the best things about MN is the amount of times posters have come on here describing unacceptable behaviour that they have normalised, or that the misogynists and morons around them IRL have told them to suck up, and being given the strength and support to bin their abusers and restart their lives.

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