the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

Skiing - I've had a relatively priviledged life too but I'm aware that for many women around me, and even moreso on a global scale, life is incredibly tough because they are women.

how do you actually do feminism - any feminism, not just radical - without recognising collective experience?

I don't think you can do anything political at all without recognising collective experience.

And as a radical feminist, recognising that collective experience is about doing so on an international basis

Whose collective experience? From whose viewpoint?

"So all men in Het relationships oppress the women they are with - although often unconsciously."
Really? Now I'm going to get told I am oppressed even though I don't feel it...Exactly how is my DH,specifically,oppressing me?
Bah,humbug.I am quite happy with "some men",or even "most men" - but all men?
And I identify as a liberal feminist,every test I've done puts me there - but I agree with most of those 9 points.
I don't agree with "overthrowing the patriarchy" because I think it is a phrase that sounds good but basically is meaningless.Doesn't mean I don't think the patriarchy is a bad thing and want to get rid of it.

TSG - Depends on your particular brand of feminism or politics

Pride - Fine, not everyone will agree. Just answering questions hear to explain radical feminism

My problem with radical feminism is quite simply that I haven't encountered anyone with those beliefs who doesn't view mine as 'antifeminism'. I don't generally post because whilst I consider myself a feminist, I refuse to accept that I am simply on a journey to higher understanding and that until I get there or have an enlightenment, my views as a liberal feminist are less valid. I can wholly support the 'I believe her' campaign whilst also accepting the 'innocent until proven guilty' basis of our justice system. I can find DV and rape utterly repugnant whilst still not accepting the 1 in 4 figures touted around. I believe the patriarchy does harm men whilst still seeing that women are harmed more. I don't believe that the this means that the impact of my actions should only be considered from a woman's point of view. I cannot see the world from a woman centric only perspective - I can only see it from mine. And I am far from convinced that the political is personal.

I will keep my fingers xs for you toddler. It's tough juggling everything.

And as a radical feminist, recognising that collective experience is about doing so on an international basis

I would like to add that this is really crucial not just for Radical feminists but an important concern to most feminist of any political flavour, I am very concerned about death in childhood, maternal death, FGM, the fact that women make up two thirds of the worlds workforce and two thirds of the worlds poor. The most exploited workers in the poorest regions of the world are women. The feed us and they clothe us and it's done on the back of exploitation and starvation.

Louie - Eats was just asked what the main rad fem principles were. She certainly wasn't devaluing anyone else's take on feminism.

Thanks Mini :)

Wasn't having a pop - just explaining why haven't been keen on posting here. I am thrilled that there seems to be a consensus that discussion is going to be actively welcomed between all types of feminists

Not every man is exploiting every women in every individual relationship. But all men are exploiting all women collectively. As a non radfem.

Now that I just don't get.

Me too Louie,

Sorry to the thrilled bit.

Mini, could you help out and explain how that is please because I struggle to understand that

Do you mean Mini that unless a man actively opposes this exploitation he is collectively and passively benefitting from it?

Whose collective experience?
Women's

From whose viewpoint?
Women's again.

For any of the issues that Mini lists, how do we do anything about them, how do we even identify them as issues, without recognising that the same thing is happening to a lot of women?

You said in a previous post, This means my truth is that feminism is necessary to continue to overturn our historical cultural base

I don't understand what this can mean if there is no shared historical cultural base. I don't understand what feminism can mean without talking about women as a group.

Meant - if a man does not oppose the collective exploitation of women he is passively benefiting from it.

Is radical feminism concerned solely and wholly about women ? Serious question.

Men are passively benefiting from patriarchy even if they are not actively exploiting individuals on an individual basis, yes definitely. As toddler pointed out, there is still a bias towards employing and promoting men, why? Is it because all bosses are men? no they are clearly not but because women still carry the dual responsibility of worker and domestic labourer/child carer we are disadvantaged.

I don't know who mentioned historical cultural base but men share the same historical social/cultural base. Women's and men's social material existence and development haven't occurred in isolation to each other. This is a bone of contention btw Marxist thinking and Radical feminism, because Rad fems will tell you patriarchy uses capitalism and has done for the last 600 years, whereas I would argue that the means of production since we settled the land dictated a clear division of labour which disadvantages women.

I think it would be weird for feminism to be concerned with men, in the same way as the civil rights movement was not overly preoccupied with improving the lot of white people?

So the division of labour was based on our biological function as child bearers and so disadvantaged us?

I don't see anything wrong at all with paying someone to clean your house for you. You pay someone (by means of your taxes) to deal with your shit, literally: taxes go towards the wages of the people who keep the sewerage system running.
When it comes to cleaning work, the people who are most often badly exploited are the ones cleaning offices for agencies: a lot of agency cleaners are very badly paid and badly treated, whereas the person who you found to scrub your kitchen floor via an ad in the newsagents' window is as someone upthread said, entrepreneurs/self-employed. As long as you (the householder paying to have the house cleaned) pay a fair wage, why on earth should you feel guilty? Apart from that residue of patriarchal bullshit that suggests a woman who doesn't do housework is a lazy bitch whos uterus will fall out if she doesn't perform enough feminine tasks.

I think feminism can be more inclusive without diminishing itself. If you don't see 'men' as the enemy the maybe it's possible to consider solutions which suit both parties and not just women. I would like equitable solutions not ones that seek to punish or condemn