the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

Cote, that's not entirely accurate. Here's one example from PubMed that reaches a different conclusion.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3176412/

'we solve problems with two hemispheres of the brain while they involve only one'

This is a remarkable claim - could you post some links to back it up?

Am I truly not allowed to be a feminist because I wouldn't support abortions? I am all for women being protected from unwanted pregnancies, and would always support any form of contraception that a woman wants. I would also happily support couselling services for women that have made the decision to have an abortion. But my support would stop at helping women access abortions, I would never stop someone from having one if that is their decision but i would not be able to help them come to that decision or help them carry it out. Even if I had all the money in the world I would not be able to support an abortion clinic as I see it as taking a life and I can't do that. In the same way that I wouldn't support euthanasia or the death penalty.

I consider myself to be a feminist. I truly do want women to be equal to men and will fight for that to become reality. So can I be both or does my stance on abortion cancel out any other beliefs and actions I perform?

Good, for me I see the right to have access to abortion as a feminist issue.

I don't think your views preclude you from being a feminist in any way however.

Actively campaigning against abortion would, for me, be a dealbreaker and I might raise an eyebrow at someone claiming to be a feminist and doing just that.

Good - You do know there isn't a feminist exam? . Of course you can call yourself a feminist. Lots may recognise you as one and some may not.

Good - I'm not sure how women could be equal to men when they are forced to be in a biological state that a man would never be in.

But if you wanna say you're a feminist, and believe yourself to be, there really isn't anyone who can say you're not.

I recognise you as a fellow feminist good - with some strong additional beliefs. To me they are not conflicting ones. I think it would be great for as many women as possible to get behind the "no controversy in contraception" campaign. How do you feel about positively promoting contraception so that it is much more widely accessible to women throughout the world ?

I am perfectly happy to promote contraception. I certainly want women to have choice about whether they become pregnant or not, but in my view there is a huge difference between preventing a pregnancy and ending a pregnancy. So widely available contraception is a very positive move imo, but widely accessible and socially accepted abortion is not a positive move. I want to see women be able to avoid the position of needing/wanting an abortion in the first place.

yellow - I don't want to see women forced to be in a biological state that men would never be in, but I also don't want to help someone to take a life. I know that a lot of people don't see it as a baby yet but i see every pregnancy as a baby from the moment of conception and as such it is precious. By all means prevent conception in any way possible if pregnancy would be that bad for you, but once conception has happened then I can't get past it being a baby.

Eats - yes i do realise that I don't have to pass an exam, but it seems to me that quite a lot of feminists wouldn't recognise me as one, even though the vast majority of my opinions fit with feminist ideals.

good how do you feel about abortions for rape or abuse victims? (genuine question, not trying to inflame)

Good - I agree that access to and education about contraception should be greater. We need to stop this sniggering attitude we have to sex in this country, it seems to be a contributing factor to women having unwanted pregnancies. So I definitely agree on that point.

I could never agree on a woman being forced to have a baby she doesn't want for whatever reason.

I'm not saying that I would force anybody to have a baby they don't want, I'm saying that I can't support them in having an abortion. I have no problem with other people providing that support if it is truly what the woman wants rather than a decision she feels is expected of her. It is perfectly legal in this country to have an abortion, I am not trying to change that, I would never condemn a woman for having one, I just can't support it. I would be perfectly comfortable providing support and counselling after the fact though.

Norma I know that it is traumatic to be pregnant after rape or abuse, but I can't see that it's the baby's fault. It most definitely is not the victim's fault either. So it's an incredibly difficult thing to consider as there are 2 innocent lives being greatly affected by the actions of a horrible, horrible man. I still don't think I could support an abortion, even in that situation. I would definitely not condemn anybody making the decision to terminate a pregnancy in those circumstances but I wouldn't be able to support them either if that makes sense.

I think my views on this have been changed by my own experiences in the past. I have been in the position of being advised to have abortions on 2 separate occassions, even though I had never said I didn't want the babies. My first pregnancy was when i was 18, my boyfriend tried to book an abortion for me (he was not a boyfriend after that, I left that day), the doctor I saw assumed I wanted an abortion and started to arrange it even though I hadn't mentioned it, then when I said I was keeping it he actively tried to persuade me to terminate and was quite hostile when I refused, I went to different doctors after that. Dd1 is now 12 and I cannot possibly imagine how my life would have turned out without her in it. The only people that supported my decision were my parents.
The second time I was told I should terminate a pregnancy was only 5 months ago, so is still very recent and raw. An unplanned pregnancy which should be dc3, which we can't really afford, we haven't got room for, etc. It ended in miscarriage which was completely and utterly devastating.

So while I don't condemn any woman that makes that decision, I think making abortion readily available and socially acceptable (even if it is still taboo to talk about it openly) has not been a good step for feminism. I see from my own experiences and the experiences of friends that women are now being pressured into abortions they don't really want because a baby will be an inconvenience for the people around them.

GoodButNotOutstanding, I really am saying this as gently as possible because your experiences should not have happened and it's wrong that they did, but for me (and it seems like for you, too), the important thing is that you didn't have an abortion.

If abortion was restricted then those doctors could not have said what they said to you. But the flip side of it is that someone else might be forced to give birth when they don't want to.

Like yellowraincoat said, I'm not an authority on who is and who is not feminist. It's your journey. But I could not support any legal restrictions on abortion, no matter what the circumstances.

I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm not actually asking for any legal restrictions, I'm not campaigning against abortion, I'm just saying that I can't support it. In the same way that you are saying you can't support restricting it.

I don't want any woman to be forced to have a baby against her will, but I think there are better ways of reaching that aim than taking away the life of a baby. I completely support any form of contraception that anybody wants to use and think it is absolutely vital that it is free and readily available without any restrictions, but for me abortion is not contraception, it's past that stage.

Yes the important thing to me is that I didn't have an abortion. Other people in the same situation have had abortions and many of them did not want them but felt they couldn't argue.

I don't know that I'm really asking for other people's acceptance of my views, I'm happy with what I believe. I just find it surprising that people could say that my stance is not compatible with feminism and wanted to find out if everyone thinks that or if it is only some people. It seems that it is some people and others are happy to recognise my views as feminist. Thank you all for answering that question for me.

My feeling WRT other women supporting abortion is that you can hold the private thought that abortion is wrong but condemnation of women who make that choice, active or public support of those who wish to restrict women's rights to access abortion or otherwise in any way try to restrict a woman's choice regarding what she does with her body your position is feminist.

This is, in my mind, one of the few areas of feminism where choice really is a feminist issue. Abortion is about choice. The ability to choose whether to remain pregnant or not. You can choose never to have an abortion if you are in that position and be feminist. In any way restricting that choice from other women is anti-feminist.

I think it does get messier once you are in a very powerful position through riches or political power. I think the ability to access abortion is an important feminist goal and those who are powerful should support this as a way of making women's lives better regardless of whether they would choose to have an abortion themselves.

Good - you raise some very valid points.

There will be many women across the world who feel the same as you. I'm thinking across the middle east and Africa for example - women who would describe themselves as feminists and campaign for women's rights in their own countries but who could not support abortion, either personally or acting in a public role. I wonder whether there is a danger defining feminism too prescriptively (or too much by western values) that it rules out the very people it could be helping?

comrade I agree that it gets messier when you are in a powerful position. I am not in a powerful position and grateful that I am not in a position to make policy on this subject. I joined the conversation because Melinda Gates was being discussed and ther had been comments that she isn't a feminist because she is refusing to fund abortions as part of her work with contraception. Yes she has stated publically that she won't be supporting abortion because it's against her beliefs, but surely that is just to explain why she isn't funding it as a 'contraceptive' option. She isn't actively trying to stop women having abortions if they are happy with that decision, she is just not facilitating it with her funding. If other people feel that strongly that it is necessary then they can provide the funding to provide it and she will not take any steps to prevent that. I don't see how her position can be seen as unfeminist when she is doing so much to help so many women (even if it is just by providing the funding, I don't know how much personal involvement she has).

pip that's my thought as well. If people define feminism too much then there is a real danger that women will feel unable to identify with that label. I would think that would make it very difficult to join movements for other parts of the feminist ideal as you may well consider them for feminists, which you aren't considered to be. When I was younger I spent time in India and met a massive number of women that consider themselves feminists, campaign for women's rights yet do not support abortion. Of course there were also many women that do support abortion over there, but the ones I met tended to be the middle/upper class women that have been exposed to far more western values, the working class women did not tend to want the right to abortion but definitely wanted the right to access contraception. I would imagine you are right in thinking that would be the same in other countries that have different values to our western ones.

Scroobiuspip, that's a very good point, I know I'm very much guilty of analysing things from a westernised stance without taking other countries into consideration. Which is ridiculous as I'm a teacher of English as a Second Language, so I spend my whole day with non-British people.

GoodbutnotOutstanding You've put your finger on an issue that's being mulled over a lot in feminist-y spaces at the moment: are there any definitive feminist/non-feminist acts?

For me, I think there's a few. Even allowing for global cultures, religions, etc, I still think that being in a public role and restricting women's access to abortion is an unfeminist act. If Melinda Gates was funding abortion, women could have one, or not have one. Because she's not, they can't.

(This doesn't mean that Melinda Gates is not a feminist. Actually, I have no idea what she calls herself. But her contraceptive programme is a good thing, even if her ideas about abortion aren't).

FWIW I think Melinda Gates had made the tactical move of not actively supporting abortion because she is trying to build a platform of "no controversy" around contraception.

The family planning summit B&MG is hosting is also with groups that fund and support abortion eg planned parenthood. So I don't think she is not engaging, supporting in some way?

Can I ask whether Meliinda Gates' stance on abortion is the reason why Mme Lindor's blog and the upcoming summit is getting so little attention on here?

Personally, I hadn't heard of MMe Lindor's blog until today. It's not been posted on this board until today AFAIK.

VG - no, but the summit has been, and Mme Lindor's blog was a sticky at the top of active convos.

I was just wondering if the reason for low interest within FWR was due to a perception that Melinda Gates is pursuing an anti-feminist agenda?

I missed Mme Lindor's blog until yesterday. I've been reading it, just haven't posted about it. Also signed the save the children petition a couple of days ago but didn't post about that either.

I'm not a great one for just posting 'great blog' or 'I agree' or 'signed/done' - I tend to wait until I have a bit more to say before I post. Maybe that's part of the reason there doesn't seem much interest. I wonder if those threads got lots of hits but not very many posts?

I don't think there's a perception, Himalaya - it's only been me and some others having a chat in here about her. Certainly I have pointed out a couple of times that it's not anti-feminist overall, just the abortion part.

I'm not sure Melinda Gates needs support or otherwise mind, given that the Foundation that she represents has more cash than a lot of state economies...

Fair enough VG, was just wondering if that was the reason for more general lack of interest.

I'm just catching up on the weeks posts and a lot has happened that feels uncomfortable and has left me rather confused.

1. Discussing feminism with men. I discuss feminism with my dad, my partner, my male friends. I find it useful to get a male perspective sometimes and I feel it helps them understand my motivations and helps me explore things/comments/ideas that I feel uncomfortable with but I'm unable to put into words. They cannot tell me how to think or what to think but can often help me understand why I think the way I do. I do find male input in FWR to generally be jarring, inflammatory and designed to provoke. But here in the paddling pool should men not be more welcome, if their motivation is to learn about feminism?

1. PIV. thank you for the explanation on why PIV is harmful to women. I understand and can see the political reasoning now.

1. Termination. I have questions here - I cannot see how a person who does not support the right to chose and would be happier if termination was not available can consider themselves to be a feminist. It is totally contrary to the doctrine - no? it's like turkeys voting for Christmas and a completely unfeminist stance. Why are some saying that is it a valid feminist stance? I could call myself a Catholic but if I didn't believe in the various tenets of the faith surely I wouldn't be accepted as such? Why is it only in FWR where people are supposed to just accept that someone is what they say they are?

A good example of this recently is the transexual threads, which were a real eye-opener for me. Until I read these I had the standard non-judgemental attitude of a man or woman having a sex change and becoming the opposite sex and I was shocked that this is not the case: that actually the only thing a man had to do was just say "I am a woman" and s/he would have to be accepted as such, and particularly accepted into womens "safe" spaces. This is patricarchy, in my opinion, and seems that whatever a man says he is is true and women just have to accept it. I was disgusted that threads were deleted.

1. Gender definitions. Much debate in this thread seems to be because posters have different ideas on the meaning of "gender", "gender roles" and "sex". Is there a feminist dictionary where these terms are defined because I'm finding it frustrating reading posts/threads where people are so clearly talking about a word but ascribing different meanings!? Until a word, or term, has an agreed defination surely posters are just talking around in circles? Perhaps at the start of a debate the OP should give a definition of the subjective words/terms they are referring to and how they are defined in that thread. Then everyone would have the same starting point at least. It's like creationists saying that evolution is just a "theory" so they can have their own theory but not bothering to understand that "theory" has a totally different meaning in scientific work than it does in theological.

Long post, sorry. I guess in short I'm just asking if this can remain a paddling pool as I'm starting to get my knees wet rather than just my ankles