the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

I think with traditionally female stuff, part of the problem is that it's so utterly devalued whereas when you stop and think about it, it's among the most basically necessary work on the planet for human beings. DC need to be brought up by someone, everybody needs food to eat, clothes to wear and reasonably clean and comfortable shelter. Of course if it wasn't so devalued, it probably wouldn't be traditionally female stuff, so chicken and egg, really.

I'm wary of saying it's problematic for women to want to do this stuff because I think we're in danger of devaluing it further IYSWIM. What is problematic is the assumption that this is women's work and that if you don't want to do it, the default solution for so many seems to be to farm out the work to other, poorer women, rather than for men to do their share.

Female Genital Mutilation, sometimes euphemistically called 'female circumcision'.

I'm reading Sheila Jeffreys at the moment who has a lot to say about harmful cultural practices in the West - stuff like cosmetic surgery, restrictive clothing, make-up etc.

Wow, that list of 9 things about radical feminism is very interesting.

I disagree - in whole or in part - with 7 of them.

I guess it's no surprise I'm not a radical feminist.

TSG - could you explain why (to the uninitiated)? Assuming you do feel that you're a feminist, but not a radical one.

Yes look at PIP breast implants and the harm they have caused to women.

Hello everyone,

Thanks to this thread, I am back. :)

I believe that everyone should be equal.
I believe that at the moment women most certainly are not equal to men.
I believe there is 'a' patriarchy (rather then in 'the' patriarchy) as the former implies men can unconsciously be part of a repressive system, whereas to me the latter implies it is a conscious choice by all.
I believe that the sex industry needs carefully regulaing, but not banning as to do so is in taking choice away from women who do want to work in the industry.

Not sure what that makes me, want to say more but have just been told off as my keyboard is apparently making too much noise :)

Because it all feels like extreme positions I suppose, from an ideological place that doesn't sit with my experience. It feels to me like a very modernist philosophy in a post-modern age.

TheSkiingGardener, do you consider yourself to be a feminist at all? How does feminism fit with postmodernism in your view? What would be a postmodern feminist position on EBAL's list?

Thanks for starting this thread Alameda and thanks Eats for the rad fem beliefs list. I've just realised I'm a liberal feminist who shares many rad fem ideals - I think I even pretty much understand the reasoning behind point 7.

I have a few question if that's ok?

Like Plenty I worry about the status of women's work and the reliance on poor, less educated women to take over childcare duties for those with more privilege. How do we change this? I mean we want women in the workforce, we want women to have the choice of any career a man has, we want women in places of power and influence, but I just can't help feeling that the women employed to do the childcare and cleaning are getting the shitty end of the stick in terms of pay and status. If we can't force men to take these roles the only other way to increase the value of 'women's work' would be in terms of pay but then it would make it impossible for many women to work and afford childcare, ( I can't see the government providing universal free childcare while simultaneously paying the workers high wagers.)

I don't know- this really bothers me. I want my daughters not to view motherhood as an obstacle to a fulfilling career and so would support them using whatever childcare suited them but what if the tables were turned and they were working in low paid childcare or cleaning jobs to facilitate other women's choices - I'm not so sure I'd be quite as happy about that.

Does anybody know the Marxist Feminist take on this?

That's something I've often thought about too Emphaticmaybe. Have you read "Global Woman"? It's a book of essays/articles about this exact issue.

global woman

There was an especially interesting chapter on the dichotomy inherent in being a carer - on the one hand, you have a very physical role so you are very visible, but the person you are caring for often wants independence - therefore wishing you invisible. I can't explain it very well, but it was an eye-opening chapter for me.

PlentyofPubeGardens that's a lot of questions.

Post-modernism is about holding multiple truths. We no longer live in a single belief, single culture society. My experience of our legal, cultural and political system is not the same as yours, or anyone else's. We each experience it differently. So a lot of those points assume their is one universal truth about our cultural experience.

I know I am fortunate to have had an education, upbringing and working experience so far in which I have never experienced the attitude that women are inferior. I did a subject at Oxford very few women did, but never felt it was an issue with anyone around me, my first job was for an organisation with a male and female owner. My current placement is for an organisation with a female Director (the only Director) and my degree is run by two (female) professors.

And I was brought up in a world with a female Prime Minister.

This means my truth is that feminism is necessary to continue to overturn our historical cultural base, but that radical feminism just doesn't hold true to me.

Thanks yellowraincoat no I've not - I'll definitely have a look.

I have real problems with these issues, I've been told it's technically good socialism to employ a cleaner, but I just can't employ someone to clean up my shit, especially another woman, ( my mother was a cleaner for long periods of my childhood and I hated it for her.)

At the same time I totally recognise that many parents working full time are going to need help with cleaning and childcare. I also know some women love working with children regardless of the pay and my own mother took satisfaction from a job well done while she was a cleaner but I still think society as a whole places little value on these roles as they are seen as unskilled jobs.

Can't tell you the Marxist view on this. But personally I have cleaned in someone's home and looked after children and was happy to do both. But I wouldn't hire a cleaner myself.

Hi Emphaticmaybe,

Marxist feminists have historically given a lot of thought to your concerns and it's one of the major strands of marxist thinking. You are right, if women's work is devalued but women want parity with men in the workplace there is the question of who picks up the mop and how that should be remunerated. There is obviously always going to be the problem that all work that is undervalued is underpaid, under the capitalist means of production it is unavoidable. The worker in the case of the cleaner/child carer must create surplus value for their employer, ie you must have a percentage of your wages left to you after all costs. Just imagine what the cleaner/carer has left after all expenses?

It is not easy to solve because all capitalist means of production and exchange must create a surplus profit for employer. A commodity must be sold for it's value in terms of all inputs including labour time, it effectively means that as you exchange labour time for a small proportion of the value created you have less money to buy less commodities.

Most Marxists/socialists would argue for three things, workers ownership of the means of production and a share of all profits, minimum wages and state sponsored childcare. The primary reason for state sponsored childcare is that childcare is then properly funded, is available to ALL women regardless of class/marital status and finally that women who undertake care should be rewarded with a share of the surplus, ie government ownership of some means of production should with taxation create a surplus to look after the poor, unwaged, full time carers etc,,,,from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Oh gosh, now I feel awful.

I use a cleaning service. I refuse to say I have a cleaner, as it sounds horrid. I always thought of it as a self employed woman who has set up her own business and works hard to be her own boss. Plus she is really nice :)

I had a HUGE dilemma over a Christmas tip v's prezzie v's nothing - I really respect and like her, and didn't want to offend, but as I said above I like her and she does a brill job as well. In the end I did give her a tip (as all the perfume left in Boots smelt of shite), and she seemed really pleased (I even text her to say I men no offense).

Am I doing something really awful by having a cleaner? Feel really stupid that I never twigged that I am contributing to, oh god even worse, benefiting from a system of women doing crappy low paid dirty work so I can toddle off to work and not come home all stressed because I have to clean my own kitchen.

Bugger. I'm horrid arnt I :(

Sorry just wanted to clarify - it's not the jobs in themselves I have a problem with. An individual is free to gain satisfaction from any role in society and I personally think looking after children is incredibly important. I also think there will always be people in society other than children that will need other people to clean and care for them - caring is a really important role.

I guess I have a problem with the low status attached to these roles and was angry about the superior and often patronising attitudes my mother was forced to endure due to her lack of educational opportunities which resulted in limited economic choices.

Thanks Mini that makes a lot of sense to me - perhaps I'm a Marxist Feminist after all,

Toddler - When I was a cleaner I was overpaid by a lefty couple who felt guilty about having a cleaner. I was happy with that.

But the fcat that you say you refuse to say you have a cleaner makes it clear that inside you don't think this is okay.

Toddler wrangler you sound great - please don't take it as a personal attack. I totally recognise the need of working women to have help.

Toddler, you are a very naughty woman indeed

Have you noticed that in order to have parity with your male counterparts at work and not be looked over for promotion you must either work full time plus overtime or work part time but work twice as hard? Have you noticed also that more people work longer hours for the same living standard? More two parent families need both parents to work longer and longer hours for the same living standards?

I don't think it's OK to refer to a person (man or woman!) as 'my cleaner' as so many people do. It is like they own the person rather then pay for a professional service. It disgusts me actually.

And I have always seen it as paying an entrepreneur for a service, till now when I read the above. But I suppose that is why I have always wanted to come back to FWR to learn more.

The Cleaner?

Mini - just this week I have been denied promotion due to being PT (I study, work and have a 3yo to look after, hence no many hours in the day for cleaning!)

I WALKED that bloody interview (which I only got after taking a grievenece out against the head recruiter) but pparently m just not good enough, bless my little cotton socks.

A million to one it goes to FT man, mid 30's.

EBL

"The cleaner" sounds even worse (to me) then "My cleaner". Makes the person sound like an object. Ughh.

Yes Mini I was reading about the reduction of wages in real terms since the seventies. In some ways it was easier when one wage supported a family. If it was still the case today both parents working would always be a choice.