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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

the paddling pool

406 replies

Alameda · 23/06/2012 00:14

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

OP posts:
handbagCrab · 24/06/2012 12:36

I pay £12.50 an hour to the lady who cleans my house. She's lovely and I am in awe of her for setting up her own business with her own usp. I don't think I am oppressing her but maybe I am in the context of society. However, if I don't have her clean and do it myself then she has less capacity to make money. I don't think cleanings beneath me it's just there's lots of other things i would rather do with my time. I often think I would be happy to be a self employed cleaner if the chips fell that way.

I did the quiz! I'm a radfem apparently... Don't know what I think about that really. Thanks for the thread btw. :)

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 24/06/2012 12:41

Mini - Because RadFems don't believe the oppression of women is founded on class.

Waspie · 25/06/2012 09:12

May I ask for a book recommendation? Feminism 101 sort of thing. I've read feminist literature and, according to the quiz, I'm more rad than liberal but I have no knowledge of feminism.

I enjoy reading the FWR board but feel unqualified to post. A couple of "feminism for beginners" books may help Smile

TIA

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 25/06/2012 09:16

How do I find that quiz Waspie - that sounds intriguing/ interesting ?

Waspie · 25/06/2012 10:01

Here is is Juggling Ayerobot posted it on one of Dittany's recent threads: What type of feminist are you?

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 25/06/2012 10:21

Thanks Waspie - just off to look at that now ...

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 25/06/2012 10:35

Well, I came out as 100% radfem in that - which I was surprised at because I didn't put "high" for strength of opinion very often. I thought radfems were more radical than that ! I think it was 56% for libfem which is what I guessed I would be.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 25/06/2012 11:19
  • Felt a little out of my depth though with some of the more political questions Confused
MiniTheMinx · 25/06/2012 11:23

Waspie, no one need feel unqualified to post here. There are no certificates or medals for good feminism Wink I will have a think about books and hopefully someone who knows more about radical politics will be back and have some suggestions. Did you want to read about feminism from the radical point of view or just in general?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/06/2012 12:16

Hi Waspie,

Don't know if you saw it but I posted this link above which gives a 101 to Radical Feminism. Can't help with other feminism 101's though.

factcheckme.wordpress.com/radfem-101/

Also this link takes you to various free online reading about feminism. Although not a 101, there is lots of useful stuff in there.
hagocrat.wordpress.com/resources/

And the whole point of this thread I thought was you don't need to know anything, but maybe have questions that you are worried others think are too basic.

MiniTheMinx · 25/06/2012 13:49

www.redletterpress.org/feminism101.html

Feminist thought by Rosemarie Tong Covers all feminist thinking and gives an introduction to the main strands of thinking, socialist/marxist/materialist, radical and liberal

monthlyreview.org/2005/07/01/what-is-socialist-feminism

The Radfem hub is an excellent source of info for all things RadFem

radicalhub.com/2011/05/24/what-is-radical-feminism-2/

overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-207/feature-gail-dines-sharon-smith/This article is really worth a read as it gives a lot of information about feminist thinking in relation to pornography. Gail Dines wrote "Porn land" and she discusses Pornography with Sharon Smith the socialist feminist and author of Women And Socialism: Essays On Women's Liberation (which I still haven't got round to reading!)

Jodidi · 25/06/2012 15:48

Thanks for this thread, I've learnt a lot. I'm not sure I would class myself as a radfem but that quiz seems to think I am, scoring 100% radfem, 89% libfem, and yet I also got 17% antifeminism Confused

I don't necessarily think much about feminism on a day-to-day basis (well, until I came to mn and started lurking on some of these threads) but my attitudes to what I should and shouldn't be expected to do are very different to my grandparents and quite different to my parents too even though they thought they were being quite progressive when we were growing up.

Beachcomber · 25/06/2012 16:48

Haven't read the rest of the thread but just wanted to talk about me comment on this from EBAL;

Beachcomber is a radfem, is married, shaves her legs and wears make up. She understands and agrees with the RadFem analysis around all of these, but still decides to do these. So it really is an individual decision.

I agree with radical feminist analysis - that society is male dominated and that women cannot achieve equality unless patriarchy is demolished. For shorthand on MN, I do describe myself as a radical feminist.

I am married, and I accept that this is contradictory to my politics - that isn't too hard. Less easy is the cognitive dissonance that I engage in in order to reconcile my situation. I do shave my legs in summer - I live in France and am not brave enough to brazen hairy legs in France. I don't dye my greying hair and the constant comments on that are enough to put up with. I very rarely wear any make-up.

None of the above are radical feminist acts. The way I, and a lot of feminists look at it, is that we all make our deals with patriarchy, and feminism is not about judging women on their individual deals (unless they harm other women).

Welcome to the section to anyone new.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/06/2012 16:49

Thanks for clarifying Beachcomber. Yes you are right

Waspie · 25/06/2012 17:03

EatsBrainsandLeaves - thank you. I missed your link first time through but I will take a look later.

Mini I'd quite like a badge actually maybe "Trainee rad-fem"? Wink I'm [very] old fashioned and like real books (showing my age!) and I don't have a phone with web access. I will certainly read through the info on this thread though, thanks again.

I appreciate what you are both saying and will post my daft questions. My main one at the moment is how should I bring up my son to be a feminist (or whatever the male term is)? I hope that DP and I set a good example of equality and non-gender stereotyped behaviour at home but already it's beginning at nursery (he's 4) and he is occasionally saying things like "that's for girls", "girls can't play football" and "don't like pink".

On the quiz I was 100% rad, 83% anarcha, 58% Eco, 48% socialist, 40% womanism, 30% amazon, 28% liberal, 8% Anti and 0% libertarian. A little shocked by that but I'm sure a different quiz would give me different results!

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/06/2012 17:07

My girlfriend calls herself an apprentice RadFem Grin

In terms of your son, all you can do is challenge things and encourage him to not limit activities to boys or girls activities, toys, etc - but do what he wants to do. Buy books, cartoons, etc as well that show a wide representation of what boys/girls and men/women do. He will also look at you and any partner you have to see how different sexes behave, so like all things you want children to learn, you need to mirror the behaviour you want him to copy. But parents are not the only influence on their children..

Beachcomber · 25/06/2012 17:10

For people thinking about what 'patriarchy' means it is just a word to describe a male dominated socio-political system.

Patriarchy = male dominated society = male supremacy. They all mean the same thing.

I read a good definition the other day;

Patriarchy is the power of the fathers: a familial-social, ideological, political system in which men - by force, direct pressure, or through ritual, tradition, law and language, customs, etiquette, education and the division of labour, determine what part women shall or shall not play, and in which the female is everywhere subsumed under the male.

UnnamedFemaleProtagonist · 25/06/2012 17:26

I came out at 100% Radfem on that quiz. Interesting.

KRITIQ · 25/06/2012 18:25

I just wanted to add a couple links to those already listed by Mini, Eats and probably a few others above related to the concept of Intersectional Feminism. It is perhaps more recognised in the context of North American feminism and women's struggles in developing countries, which may be why at least in my experience, it's misunderstood amongst many European feminists.

The roots of the concept were founded primarily amongst feminists of colour who felt that none of the other "strands" of feminism acknowledged their experience of both institutionalised sexism and racism, and in some instances, they felt their concerns about racism within the women's movement were not heard.

In time, Intersectional Feminism came to include the need to recognise the specific experience of those who experience more than one form of oppression (not just racism and sexism.) In addition, the experience of a person at that "intersection" itself can be unique and not just "sexism with an added helping of racism," for example. So, it's something like a venn diagram - a disabled woman may experience some of the same forms of oppression as a non-disabled woman and some of the same forms of oppression as a disabled man, but also oppression FROM both non-disabled women and disabled men AND forms of oppression unique to her specific experience as a disabled woman.

Intersectional Feminism recognises that all individuals and groups experience both oppression and privilege and social, economic and political justice can only be achieved by acknowledging and addressing that interplay of factors. It also recognises that the mechanisms of oppression are often similar, even when used against different groups of people - e.g. women, Lesbian, bisexuals and gay men, disabled people, working class people, migrant, people of colour, people of differing faith and cultural backgrounds, transgender, older people, younger people, etc. Examples include things like demeaning language, limiting their economic opportunities, exclusion from decision-making, threats, violence and abuse.

This wiki entry is a bit dry and focusses on Intersectionality as a broad concept - not just related to feminism, but the links particularly to the work of Kimberle Williams Crenshaw, Patricia Hill Collins, Audre Lorde and bell hooks are very useful.

This article also explains the links between Anarcha Feminism and Intersectional Feminism.

This is a short, accessible description of the views of a woman who describes herself as a [http://life-tbd.tumblr.com/feminist radical, intersectional feminist of colour], to give an idea of how this perspective translates to the beliefs of one intersectional feminist.

Hope that's helpful to those interested in exploring the different strands of feminism.

KRITIQ · 25/06/2012 18:27

Oh, just a quick note - I think that wee quiz is a bit slanted towards Americans, particularly with some of the questions about gun control, so maybe needs a big pinch of salt with the results! Also, not all feminist fit themselves into specific little boxes, which I think is a very good thing! :)

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 25/06/2012 18:29

I got 100% radfem but then among other things I got 20% antifem. Hmm I'm wondering if it was the gun questions. It's a fun way of finding out vaguely where you fit but I'd treat it with a large pinch of salt.

KRITIQ · 25/06/2012 18:29

Grrr - here's the last linky from above. Sorry! I?m an intersectional radical woman of color Feminist.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 25/06/2012 18:29

ah x-post KRITIQ Grin

KRITIQ · 25/06/2012 18:36

(All this salt isn't good for us you know!) Grin

MiniTheMinx · 25/06/2012 20:01

I did the quiz and it came out 100% socialist but I knew it would because the questions were leading and obvious. I could possibly have rigged it so it told me what I wanted to hear Grin but great fun.

Intersectional Feminism recognises that all individuals and groups experience both oppression and privilege and social, economic and political justice can only be achieved by acknowledging and addressing that interplay of factors YY KRITIQ

Do we all make deals with the patriarchy? probably, I know I do every day. I work for myself, I shave my legs and I live with a man. Men are probably here to stay, it's understandable and inevitable that some bargains will be made. However for me the real no no would be supporting the sex industry. I have yet to find a compelling argument in its favour. Making a bargain to overlook the exploitation of some women for the sake of other women is for me not something that can be rationalised.

Coping with conflicting views, the hardest for me is the nuclear family, don't agree with it, hate it, know it's not good for me (thats me not you) but still happy and still hanging in there because it might be the optimal conditions in which to bring up children. Although brain says no.