the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

waspie Why would you think people would not accept you as Catholic if you didn't accept certain parts of the faith? I am a Catholic, but I think gay marriage is a good idea, wholeheartedly support free and readily available contraception across the world, I am unmarried yet have 2 children and live with my partner. My priest and everyone else at my church knows all of this and are perfectly happy to call me a Catholic. So it's not just fwr where people can identify as something without subscribing fully to everything other people believe that to mean.
I am also the poster that thinks I can be a feminist without supporting abortion. I will say again that I have never and would never condemn a woman who has made that decision, I don't actively campaign against abortion and I never would but I don't support it. I don't see abortion as a basic tenet of feminism, a lot of women may consider it to be but there are probably quite a number of women that don't. I think it is a shame that women can be doing a lot of good to improve the lives of women around the world but can be told they are not a feminist because they don't support one thing that other feminists think they should. Just because I have other strong beliefs doesn't mean I can't share the vast majority of what people consider to be feminism.

The quiz that was linked to earlier in the thread identified me as 100% radfem and 80% libfem, so I'm clearly on the same page as everyone else in most of the beliefs of feminism.

Waspie, re termination, I've flipped flopped a bit on this all week. Personally I am pro-choice and believe govts should fund this.

My concern is that this is predominantly a western perspective and that there are a lot of women around the world who regard themselves as feminist and do a tremendous amount of work to promote women's rights in the developing world and globally who are not pro-choice, for cultural or religious reasons. Many Muslim feminists would fall into that camp, I imagine. Do we really want to alienate such women by telling them their views are anti-women because they do not conform to a western definition of feminism? Don't get me wrong, I do see the feminist argument but I also see the potential for a backlash against A perception of western imposed values which might do more harm than good.

Love your idea of a feminist dictionary btw!

GoodButNotOutstanding I consider a woman's right to chose to be as fundamental to equality as a woman's right to vote. I just can't see how someone who is pro-choice is aiding women's rights. For me feminism is very much about women doing no harm to other women and working to pull down barriers and, on a day to day basis, make women's lives better. Forcing a woman to keep an unwanted pregnancy is potentially emotionally, mentally and physical harmful to her and by extension to her child.

Obviously I'm glad that women are doing good things all around the world but if the motivation for the good things they are doing is to push an agenda that is, or may be, harmful to other women then I am sceptical if that person says they are a feminist. Does Melinda Gates claim to be a feminist?

I picked a bad example with the Catholic Church - perhaps a better example would be that if I had a bacon sandwich this morning I can't see how I can call myself a vegetarian. Similarly if I am doing something that is potentially detrimental to women I wouldn't feel that I could call myself a feminist.

In the examples ScroobiousPip gives I would call these women missionaries. Would they really define themselves as feminists? Perhaps the feminist ideology is different in different cultures - perhaps feminism is restricted within the confines of the religious doctrine or cultural boundaries. I would be sad if this were true, although I could understand why. Something else I know nothing about but would like to learn more!

That is a good post, ScroobiousPip.

I am as pro-choice as they come, but it's very easy to see why people of both sexes are unhappy with abortion. For my part, if I see someone who has real moral problems with abortion and doesn't support funding it, but who is keen to promote contraceptive use, women's ability to refuse sex, and support for babies born as a result of unplanned pregnancies - and who understands the pressures that lead women to choose termination, and doesn't judge/seek to punish the woman who make that decision - then I would be happy with that person calling themselves a feminist.

I realise though that this is a very personal view.

MooncupGoddess You have just described me exactly with your last post. I wholeheartedly want women to have the freedom to choose whether or not to become pregnant, but once a pregnancy has begun I cann't see it as anything other than a life and cannot support ending it. That doesn't mean I am judging any woman who makes that decision, I have a lot of empathy for women that are in that position, it just means that I personally would not have any involvement in funding or assisting the process.

Waspie I'm quite happy for you to think it's as basic as the right to vote and I can fully understand your viewpoint, but my view is different. I don't see that refusing to support abortion is pushing an agenda that is harmful to women, it's just standing by your own morals whether other people agree with them or not. I don't see that that anybody should be forced to continue an unplanned pregnancy if sufficient and reliable contraception is the norm. I absolutely agree with the right to choose, but I believe that choice should be made before conception.

From a purely economical point of view (setting aside my own morals) it is cheaper to fund long term reliable contraception than it is to fund abortion. So governments and organisations around the world would reach a much larger proportion of women if they focussed on improving access to contraception. So if the current percentage of women able to access reliable/long-term contraception is under 50% and we can increase that to 80% (or preferably 100%) then there would be a larger decrease in unwanted babies than if we used the same funds to provide abortions.

'perhaps the feminist ideology is different in different cultures'

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. For example, i can see that women in Afghanistan would have their own unique shared experiences compared to women in the west.

Saying that, it is an area I know virtually nothing about and would be very interested in learning more too, waspie.

As a starter for ten, I found this on Wikipedia about post-colonial feminism

Can anyone recommend any proper reading in this field?