the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

I don't particularly like discussing feminism with men either, yellow, (except with my wonderful dh) and I must admit I do always wonder why men are interested in coming on the FWR board. I'm really, really sorry if that offends anyone, and I certainly don't want to kick anyone off, but to me, there's something a wee bit strange about it.

I suppose it's because, I wouldn't go around trying to authoritatively discuss racism as experienced by an ethnic minority in the UK. I would always counter racist attitudes irl and on MN, but, as a white person, I wouldn't actually seek out a place where, say, black people were discussing the impact of racism on them - because I have no actual experience of being a victim of racism.

Not sure if I've explained it well at all - it was the nearest analogy that came to mind. I know I'm probs being unreasonable - but, you know, it's just a feeling.

Having said that, I would also like to state for the record that I am grateful for this thread, where (for the first time in FWR that I can recall) I am able to voice these doubts and concerns without being pounced on by a gang of regulars and called "anti-feminist".

do you not think there are differences between African faces?

I'm just saying what I learned in school about 30 years ago, about how these factitious biological concepts were used as an excuse to oppress and enslave. So I suppose it is analogous to feminism.

I don't know how "Asian" for example can possibly be described as one race.

runningforthebus - I get what you mean.

No, I think you've put it very well, running

yellow - You know what I mean, though, I hope. The exact classification is "Mongoloid" - you know, the epicanthic fold, shovel incisors, etc. I used the term "Asian" because "Mongoloid" sounds derogatory to some people. Apologies for any confusion.

Feeling aside, I think we need to talk about feminism with men (not only here but in RL). If we can change the way they see these issues just a little bit, it will be worth any discomfort that may cause us.

Of course there are similarities between how people from some areas look - but there are also huge differences and I think that's what is often overlooked.

The other point is that it really doesn't matter, does it? Is it important what body we are born into? Why should that have an effect on how we act?

What about the menz

• Surely we should talk to them about all of this ?

( your argument sounds a bit like that to me there Cote - just to be a bit more straight-forward )

Cote - you are free to talk feminism with men. I personally find it too frustrating. I'll talk about it on a basic level (eg pointing out sexism where I see it) but the finer points? Nah.

Juggling, you were right earlier - it feels like a man sneaking into a women's changing room and joining in a conversation.

Sorry, I know it sounds really really bad, but I've felt like this for a while and it's actually quite nice to get off my chest. Apologies if I've offended.

You don't need to apologise, running. It is your opinion and it is valid.

I thought I'd go with the changing room analogy since we're all in the paddling pool here ?

Alameda - Of course there are differences between every person, even within the same racial group. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as race.

These days, the term 'race' is used to mean 'subspecies'. Just like there are different species of cats, for example, although there are always minute differences between one cat and another within the same species.

We were taught that races of people are groups who have evolved in separate geographic locations, according to different natural selection criteria. And that it doesn't take an anthropologist to recognise major races, although there is overlap especially since we have mingled so much in the last couple of centuries.

I talk about feminism with men, agree with runningforthebus up to a point though - if they take a more passive, listening sort of role and genuinely want to be part of a solution then why shouldn't they be here? Obviously if they revert to type and try to dominate the space they make themselves unwelcome.

Don't feel any burning need to evangelise and convert men or other women to the cause, just appreciate having the time and space to consider various of these issues here especially from daring new angles.

Well, I won't be free to talk to him if he is hounded off FWR for being a man, will I?

I asked a question and nobody answered, and I'm curious. Is there a reason why he is unwelcome on this thread other than that he is not a woman?

Agree, Alameda. I'm fine to discuss feminism if men are happy to listen, ask questions and so on. NOT if they want to try to tell me what I should think or feel.

Even my lovely partner does this on occasion, although he understands a lot more now I think.

Cote, we said. Not good to discuss past threads. Feel free to look them up.

If you want to discuss feminism specifically with him, why not PM?

you could always pm him and strike up a correspondence off board

I'll talk about feminism with my dh, because I know he loves and cares about me and will listen to me - and he's a very new man type, but even he doesn't get some of it! He has a bit of a blind spot with 'male privilege' for example - thinks because he has always treated women with utmost respect (and he has as far as I'm aware) he doesn't benefit from male privilege. When he does.

I think it is because there have been so many invasions here, I can't help but wonder about the motives of men posting here.

juggling - re "What about the menz - Surely we should talk to them about all of this ? your argument sounds a bit like that to me there Cote - just to be a bit more straight-forward"

Am I supposed to understand what you meant by this?

A bit like what?

Look up which thread?

If he was such an ogre on that thread, shouldn't you be asking MNHQ to ban him rather than tell him he is not welcome?

Which, you must surely know, you have no right to say to people on a public forum?

Do men go onto the pregnancy boards and discuss related issues or do they accept that it's something that doesn't happen to them and therefore recognise what little value their contributions have to peer-based support?

I'm not telling anyone they're not welcome. I'm telling him that I am not interested in his views. He can continue to post as much as he likes.

You can search and make up your own mind.

Let us not sully the waters of the paddling pool with these trifling matters.