the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

is yellow raincoat an allusion to that suspicious yellow cloud of water following you around the pool?

Your argument there sounded a bit like it was at least as important if not more so to discuss feminism with men, as it is to discuss it with women.

I gather it's often said on fwr that someone will soon come along and say " But what about the men ?"

That's what I meant - I thought most people would see where I was coming from, but did try to clarify in the brackets

I suppose pregnancy doesn't interest them in the same way as being told that they are oppressors does. That's fine by me. The few who show up might learn something.

Juggling - "Your argument there sounded a bit like it was at least as important if not more so to discuss feminism with men, as it is to discuss it with women"

No it didn't, because I said no such thing. And it wasn't even an "argument"

All I said was that I'd be happy to talk feminism with a man if one happens to show up in FWR.

As I said before, it really feels like some of you have been reading the same books and talking among yourselves for so long that you see stereotypical "arguments" wherever you look.

it should interest them really, but other women are oppressors too aren't they - we are often complicit or we collude (or collaborate if you like) to survive

If you are referring to where I then generalised and said it would be good to talk to men about these things not only here but in RL, it obviously wasn't any judgement re which is more important - to discuss feminism between women or with men.

Just that I don't mind discussing feminism with a man and actually think some good might come out of it.

That is actually very unfair Cote - this is the paddling pool, there have been a wide variety of posters new to FWR here. We haven't all been reading the same books.

anyway I sometimes like talking about feminism with men but I do find actual misogynists much easier to communicate with than the sort of pseudo-feminist leftie assange/Strauss Kahn apologist type misogynist - probably because for some self-hating reason am more likely to fancy the former

I've been backstabbed by women on numerous occasions but never oppressed by any, iirc.

It wasn't me Alameda.

Cote, it is FINE to want to discuss feminism with men. No-one saying you can't. I for one am not interested.

by 'oppressed' I mean contributing to the general curtailing of freedom, making other women feel shit, anything that keeps us in our place really

well I have done it anyway

What has "unfair" got to do with it? It sounds to me like the same ideas have been bouncing between the same people reading the same books. That is the only explanation I can find for the same memes being repeated. Like "gender is a social construct" or "no choice possible without equality".

Alameda, Eats, and Beach are not newbies, by the way, although most of the rest of us are.

Anyway, I need to go and get my beauty sleep. I enjoyed this conversation and hope to continue tomorrow. Good night everyone.

I don't think it is about having read the same books, social theory often uses the same terms even in relation to different things. You could pick up lots of books on any kind of social theory and find that the writers use the same terms and they also quote from others work.

I am trying to remember what texts I have read - I know which ones I haven't, just could NOT cope with gyn/ecology and have abandoned that. Read lots and lots of Dworkin when I was younger and loved her a lot, perhaps it is all still in there somewhere, my daughters tend to read more contemporary stuff and I keep meaning to borrow some.

Night Cote,

I don't particularly want to discuss feminism with men on forums, more than happy in RL though.

We have our shared common experience and history of oppression down the ages and we also have our own personal experiences in relation to our own lives. I think that is reason enough for men to give us space to support each other. if we choose to seek men's opinions we could all rush off to the mens rights boards

'What has unfair got to do with it?'

Erm, because it's unfair ?

Unfair to accuse posters on the paddling pool thread of "reading the same books and talking amongst yourselves for so long" blah blah - when the majority here aren't FWR regulars.

I don't think of the men's rights lot as 'men', got them mentally filed away somewhere along with other wrong'uns. Normal men are not really like that in real life are they?

Have to be in the mood for talking to men about feminism, but when I am it's often fascinating. I say talking to but it's occasionally more listen in awe.

Okay been away all evening but just a few points.

1. I am happy to discuss feminism with men, but I won't put as much time into it as i will with women. Because IME if men are going to be allies, generally it is obvious early on. Lots of men will never be allies.
2. Change comes about in things because women have demanded it, not because men have agreed. Although there have been male allies, every major change I can think of that was challenging the patriarchy was brought about by women demanding it - equal pay, votes, DV shelters, etc - all through women demanding these rights or setting things up.
3. Of course some feminists have raed the same books, but an awful lot haven't. I feel I should have read lots of books - but I haven't.

running - The people here I said that about (Beachcomber, Alameda, EatsBrains) are not newbies. I said this before and can say it again, if you need me to.

Cote - No I am not a newbie. But I haven't been here that long either.

Still wasn't a particularly constructive thing to say though. And an example of why radfems feel attacked. It sounded like you were dismissing their argument by saying 'oh you've all just read the same books', repeat the same arguments. BUt surely things like 'gender is a social construct' is a sentence that will come up frequently in discussions on feminism?

VictorGollancz - I see your point about not funding abortion being an unfeminist act as women should be free to make their own decisions about their bodies. Personally, i agree, although i don't know what that means for catholic or muslim women - can they never be seen as feminist because they won't support abortion?

Nonetheless, something like 120m more women will have at least some access to birth control by 2020 than now. So, does the fact that one aspect of the programme is potentially unfeminist 'taint' the rest of the programme? Does it matter when the outcome will be so beneficial to so many women? Is feminism all about the means, or can the means be forgiven, given the outcome that the programme will achieve?

My gut feeling, btw, is that overall it should be seen as a feminist act, because of the end outcome. But the abortion issue does trouble me...

"Same books" wasn't meant as an insult, needless to say. It is perfectly normal for people of the same persuasion to read the same influential writers of that viewpoint.

running - You need to calm down. I didn't dismiss their arguments by saying "you've all read the same books" (which wouldn't dismiss anything. so what if they did? does that mean those books were wrong?)

I actually dismissed their arguments by pointing to experiments that show gender is at least partially innate, and to the obvious racial differences in the world