"Aung Sang Suu Kyi should have put her children first"

[blondieminx]

Just heard most staggering discussion on Jeremy Vine (yes i know - but am working from home while poorly, with Radio 2 on!) with overemotional "educationalist and commentator" Simon Waugh who was sadly orphaned age 6 who spent a good ten minutes saying that since Aung Sang Suu Kyi became a mother she should have put them first and come out of Burma to fight the battle from afar.

This is the woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her work in Burma FFS. As the lady from Refuge (didn't catch her name) said, "you woudn't be saying all this if she was a man". Quite.

Just makes me feel very ranty that some men, and specifically "educationalists" think that a woman's place is always in the home. Even in the case of a Nobel Peace Prize winning inspirational woman who has changed the path of her country and been a beacon of light and democracy.

Right, so what you're saying is women are applying, but most of us feel Properly Maternal (except those on this thread, obviously, and a few other freaks) and just don't want to. Sorry, disagree. Entrenched sexism, from education upwards, plus the belief that Proper Women - certainly Proper Mothers - don't do powerful jobs, is more of a block, I'd say.

And why on earth do you want to know what jobs we do? By your argument, any job is Not Important Enough To Sacrifice Your Children For.

But if you like I'll say here and now that I like working. I need to do it, what with having to put food in the mouths of my children, but I don't want to be a SAHM. (Granted, I don't want to spend decades under house arrest either.) My children are nice. Get over it.

Me too mother inferior. I enjoy my job. I didn't sacrifice my entire life on the altar of motherhood, I'm allowed to do things because I want to.

Yeuck tulips I wouldnt want you or your attitude as any kind of influence in my dds lives, fo sure

I'm maternal and getting a degree in a field which means I will need to leave my family for months on end to work in Africa with women and children. I may also have my children living in various countries throughout their lives.

I still think I'll be a great mum. I will be showing my children from day one how lucky they are and hoping that they will be driven to also help people, perhaps in a better way than I'll be able to.

Actually you all sound very angry. Read the whole thread and there are plenty of angry posts directed at me. I'm not angry at all. Why would I be? I'm happy and confident about my choices in life and should i want to resume my career or start a new one at any point of course i can do that.

Anyway am off now to enjoy the sunshine with my family and some friends. Have a good day everyone!

You don't sound happy or confident about your choices actually. You sound a bit scared and resentful. But whatever.

I agree with Chubfiddler. You're coming across like you're projecting.

I have a career that does save, and fundamentally change people's lives for the better.

I have no children yet, but full intend to continue working when I do. One of the reasons that I know I can do this is that my DP will make a dedicated father, capable of taking responsibility for a significant part of childcare.

I was brought up in a family where I was taught by both parents to respect women, including my mother, for the person she is, not just for how well she complied with some abstract definition of what a good mother is supposed to be. My father worked from home and my mother worked full time out of the home. I remember feeling proud, not deprived, when I told people what she did.

It does make me slightly angry to see such a wonderful person attacked, yes. But, Tulip, if you think attacking and belittling women for their choices, as you have done here, doesn't make you sound angry, you're mistaken.

I think it is totally rational to be able to believe that ASSK was both wonderful for Burma, and less than wonderful as a mother. Tradeoffs are everywhere in life, that was hers.

People haven't really been talking tradeoffs though, it has been stated both explicitly and implicitly by a few posters that she should have left Burma and not left her children in the care of their father. People have said that her place was with the children. I think that's why people have been so irked.

And I can see the difference between my children and those whose mothers work full time and I know for sure that my children are healthier and happier and more successful in every aspect of their lives.

Your children are more successful hey?

I wonder how you'll treat your very successful daughter when she decides she doesn't want to be a SAHM?

Children of working mothers are often very successful. Three of mine have graduated and are not doing too badly so we have some proof of the pudding there.

The reasnos children of working mothers tend to do better are:-

(a) working mothers tend to be those with higher IQs and better qualifications who know more about child psychology so bring children up better (not all, but on the whole)

(b) working mothers can earn a lot - I've paid 5 lots of school fees and the 5 will graduate debt free. Money and private education is one of the best predictors of child outcomes.

(c) if the example mummy gives you is doing nothing then you aren't like to do well. Instead you and your brothers will think mothers serve and clean up and men earn so children of housewives just perpetuate sexist patters

(d) working mothers' chldlren are strong and independent and they tend to learn skills like how to get a night bus in London or how to cook earlier than children of housewives and have fewer issues adjusting to university life

(e) 50% of the marriages on this thread will fail and children of working mothers find their lives continue much as before as mumym earns lot. Those whose mothers don't work are often plunged into poverty and state benefits.

As for how much time a parent should spend apart from a child for work that is for the parents to decide. There was a lot of anti woman press comment about our attache or something to Iraq who is a divorced mother with 5 children which would never ever be done in the same way about a man. I don't like being away too much. I am away a bit next week, an over night in Europe. Sometimes I've been in places like Dubai, Iran, Lagos, Trinidad for work and my preference is to make those trips as short as possible but I would not criticise parents who do it differently and my children have hugely benefited from my example.

Thistledew sums it up well. Most of us have talents which can be applied not just to scrubbing kitchen floors and wiping babies' bottoms and cleaning up after husbands but also to the wider world. Arguably we have a moral duty to provide those talents to those whom we help at work. Anyway what I earn pays the benefits for a good few benefits claimants or tax credit claimants so they ought to be pretty grateful for it that so many women do work.

The bottom line is usually marry a sexist pig and life will be hard as a full time working mother. Marry a fair normal man who mucks in as much as you do and it's fine. It's what the head of the Girls' Schools Association said the other week. If I in the 80s could do my own due dligence (we talked about full time working, child care and all that stuff before we married and he knew I was a feminist and I also observed - he had his own house, had his system for washing of his shirts etc etc).

Tulips, I am not angry, but sad at your lack of belief. I'm not sure where it stems from but you seem to be projecting a lot onto ASSK's children, both real and fictional!

All children get pissed off with their parent's choices. One of ASSK's sons did (according to a previous post, I personally have not read the New Yorkers article and cannot comment). I did. I expect you did. And in the future our children will moan and rant about us and our choices.

The choices that my parents made when I was little were not easy. They knew that there would be a price and that the whole family would pay this price. However, as I said before the payoff was that I grew up in a much fairer society than they did, but more than that, my DS will know only of this struggle in terms of it's historical context. They did it for us. In the past I have been pissed off about the trauma and hassle caused. But I am eternally grateful to them. They taught me about rights, responsibilities and my place in the world. They taught me that i have the power to change things. And I do.

Tulips, what did your parents teach you?

If I in the 80s could do my own due dligence

I am continually gobsmacked at the no. of posters on MN who seem to do a sort of anti-due diligence...

I spent 16 years in the military, tulips, and then emigrated. I just have a pt paying job, but ft volunteer commitments which mean that I often leave my kids with childminders. I happen to believe that my volunteer commitments benefit other people immensely, in far greater number, and am content that my children will recognise that we all have a duty to one another in society. It isn't all about how much money you drag in, and given that some months we struggle to pay the mortgage on our two bed apartment (yes, I have three children. Two sleep in the basement) I think you'd be hard pressed to tag me as a capitalist. . (they did call me maggie thatcher at uni, though - maybe you could use that?)

My eldest is in y7 in her sixth school, and we take them with us around the world, largely because to date we have been able to. I would have had some emotional angst had we not been ale to, but they would have used one of the many v capable bOarding schools that exist for families in such circumstances.

All three have always been tagged as gifted wherever we've fetched up. My youngest has cerebral palsy, so I 've been involved in a lot of advocacy work. In order to emigrate we had to wrangle with second country legislation surrounding non acceptance of persons who would be a 'burden on the country' on behalf of my daughter (and in turn every other person with a disability who wanted to be able to move freely about the world).

Tulips, I'm really glad you are happy with your choices. They are fine and upstanding choices, and we all make them every day. Your choices are no better and no worse than mine.

Personally speaking, I'm not pissed off because you value being a sahm. I value being a sahm. I'm pissed off that you choose to judge (vocally and loudly, and insultingly) other people's choices, for the temerity of putting other people first, and laughably calling them 'selfish'. That lack of understanding makes it difficult for me to take you seriously, tbh. And I fully recognise the inherent of a mother. Fully.

Apparently you don't recognise the inherent value of a woman.

That's what pisses me off and makes me angry. Not the fact you choose to be with your kids. I don't give a toss about that.

The woman has made history, a woman changing the political landscape of a country. Her children had a father and were cared for....who cares whether she was a good mother?

Posie....erm....her children....?

Posie: spot on.

Re my parents..there were times my mum was sahm and my dad worked, times when both worked and times when my mum worked and my dad didn't. None of it made the slightest impact on my decision to leave my 10 year career when I had DD to sahm. I wanted to. Yes i've found it very boring at times, unfulfilling at times, frustrating etc etc. I hate housework am not particularly domesticated. But i've stuck with it through thick and thin because i feel dedicating about 10 years of my life largely to my children is well worth it.

I'm early 40's. Still have plenty of friends and contacts within my old profession so am lucky enough to have a way back into my career should i want to. But right now I don't.

I am financially independent of my DH as whilst i was working i was lucky enough to invest and those investments, made nearly 20 years ago, now provide me with a healthy income. I have been very lucky in many ways.

I don't view success in life as simply professional success. I want my children to be emotionally healthy, create and sustain healthy adult relationships and friendships, learn to respect their own and other's boundaries, etc etc. Career/financial/professional success is one relatively minor and very narrow measure of a successful life imo.

If my DD chooses not to be a sahm that's her choice. But I hope I have brought her up to know that bringing up children is an extremely important job and that she will therefore give her children the time and attention they deserve and need whilst balancing this with her own needs. Balance is the key. The problem i have with ASSK as a mother is that there was no balancing of needs. Her children's legitimate need for a mother was completely ignored in favour of the needs of others and her own need/wish to help. And I would judge any PARENT in the same way. Male or female.

My DH could have applied for a number of promotions in his work meaning more money. But it would have meant longer hours, more travel etc. We discussed it and agreed he would not go for the promotions in favour of maintaining a good work life balance.

I think ASSK completely lost sight of the importance of her family and yes I do judge her for that. As I am perfectly entitled to just as you are entitled to admire her.

But it wasn't just her 'wish to help'. It was her political commitment to freedom for herself and indeed her children. You're confusing her with some kind of lobbyist/aid worker. ASSK was in a unique position: one that made it possible for peculiar political leverage.

Many of us manage with pretty crap parenting, frankly, in any case. Greatly over-rated, Good Parenting.

motherinferior, got to agree with you on both your points.

She was in a unique position. And plenty of great people had shit parents or absent parents or no parents.

I think dedicating your life to your children is unhealthy, the 'look what 'i've done for you' school of parenting isn't my preference. I think ASSk is a woman, and a mother, to be proud of