"Aung Sang Suu Kyi should have put her children first"

[blondieminx]

Just heard most staggering discussion on Jeremy Vine (yes i know - but am working from home while poorly, with Radio 2 on!) with overemotional "educationalist and commentator" Simon Waugh who was sadly orphaned age 6 who spent a good ten minutes saying that since Aung Sang Suu Kyi became a mother she should have put them first and come out of Burma to fight the battle from afar.

This is the woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her work in Burma FFS. As the lady from Refuge (didn't catch her name) said, "you woudn't be saying all this if she was a man". Quite.

Just makes me feel very ranty that some men, and specifically "educationalists" think that a woman's place is always in the home. Even in the case of a Nobel Peace Prize winning inspirational woman who has changed the path of her country and been a beacon of light and democracy.

Blimey, some people need to go live in a totalitarian regime for a while and then start talking about how 'there is always a third way'.

Truth is, heroes nearly always have to neglect their nearest and dearest, don't they? Mandela may not have chosen to go to prison but he chose to get involved in political activity knowing that that was a likely outcome. Emmeline Pankhurst 'abandoned' her daughters again and again when she was being forcefed in prisons. My great uncle was tortured and shot for anti-Nazi resistance activities in Germany. Everyone in our family thinks he was a hero (except for his wife, who thinks he was a twat ) but he could only do this because he abandoned his Jewish wife and children in the middle of Nazi Germany in 1941. If it had been her, no doubt she would have been called selfish.

Of course her children paid a price, but children of high achieving parents always do. Don't we want women with children to be high achieving?

Tulips doesn't. Tulips wants women to know their place - which is by their children's side until they are at least 27. Just in case anything happens to the other parent.

But never fret, tulip's kids will be on the 'but we took you to stately homes' thread 2023, slagging her off on tinternet despite her thinking she's doing them a huge favour being there all the time and investing in their upbringing.

Relic of victoriana, angel by the freaking fireside, I cannot believe there are women so downtrodden that they don't believe they are as worthy of a life outside the home, and as capable of selfless acts, and have as much power and right to lead a country as a man in this day and age.

I actually feel sorry for poor tulips. Imagine feeling that unworthy of equality that you spend hours on an Internet forum demanding that anyone who does see themselves as equal backs down and submits to the force of their lactating breasts?

How very dare any woman believe she is in any way equal to any man?

I feel like I've stepped back in time.

But I guess it takes all sorts. And just as there will be men who aren't cut out for independence, there will be tulips some women.

How old are you, tulips,as a matter of interest? It would kind of be understandable if you have never done anything except be home, sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. And I assume limited or no further education, as usually there is an element of equality discussion there... I'm not even going to ask if you work as that would erroneously suggest I value paid employment over child raising, which isn't the case - I just happen to think that either a man or a woman can do it.

I think I'm just clawing around for some signs of hope that tulips has become brainwashed by what she sees as her lot, and has yet to experience anything that truly offends her sense of what is deemed appropriate for her sex, and thinks 'fuck that' and starts to believe she is equal.

I'm just frightened that she's the same age as me and really believes the tosh she's spouting here. And really believes it when she is told 'you can't do that because you are a woman'.

Tulips, you can do anything a man can do.

Honestly.

You can.

It is scary.

No one is telling you that you have to leave home and save orphans, but you can if you want to. You can climb mountains, fight wars, go to the north pole, stand for election, campaign for green peace, take up skydiving, decide to be a neurosurgeon. You can have a man look after your children.

It's 2012.

Your life doesn't have to be keeping the home fires burning.

Really.

But it can be if you want it to be.

All good.

But don't fecking argue that no other woman ought to do anything because of her lactating capabilities.

Have not read all posts but this is not directed for women only. I remember reading a book about Mahatma Gandhi and the criticism was that he did zero for his own wife and family.

All fine, megabored. I'm all for a bit of equality based criticism. Sadly Gandhi doesn't have the womb and lactating breastage that tulips feels precludes women from doing anything on a wider scale. Her point was definitely that women should not be world leaders, or put themselves in any danger at all on anyone else's behalf (except presumably their own children, because that would be unforgivably selfish.

Cos like, house arrest is a dead cushy number. And who gives a flying fuck about all the other children, as long as yours are safe, hidden out of the country, with you tending to their every need.

Women have no role in making the world a better place, none. It is a man's job.

They should keep well away from danger. Women are for nurture, not for battle. Those dirty mean men are the ones that can do the dangerous stuff. The women should only be allowed to take part with the proviso that they can mange their domestic responsibilities adequately (even if the father is available and perfectly capable of doing so) and don't put themselves in personal danger. Because that would be selfish.

Equality is but a pipe dream because loons like tulips genuinely believe a woman's place is in the home. You can't argue with idiocy.

Devora - Too true, I'm sure there are many countries which wish they had someone who could lead an opposition like her.

"It's a futile fight".

No it's not Tulip. The fight for right is never futile. I am so sad that that is your mindset. It is that defeatist attitude that is responsible for the ills of society..

But things can and do get better.

For all of us.
But only due to the courage, strength and selflessness of those such as ASSK.

The Nobel peace prize is given out willy nilly these days. Obama got it for doing....what?

Not being Bush.

Her children were aged something like 10 and 14 and hadn't they lived their lives in the UK?

Fascinating thread and some great posts. I think it's appalling to call ASSK a failure as a parent. It is also disingenuous to suggest that being there all the time = excellent parent, let's be honest we all can think of examples where that is NOT the case. My grandmother stayed at home and raised my dad and his sister like all good women at that time did, and they hated her because she was NOT a good mother.
I was also thinking where's Xenia when you need because she'd give Tulips what for :)

It is quite possible to be a 'devoted' parent, attached to your DC like glue and absolutely toxic!
Luckily some people will take on a role against oppression and it can't be done - whether male or female - without some personal sacrifice.

I have long admired Aung San Suu Kyi since seeing the news on the aftermath of the 1988 Crackdown in Burma - I was in my late teens. I though was amazing then, she has achieved a huge amount, and sacrificed much. She has risked her own life and safety by remaining in Burma and I'm that people can then use this personal bravery as a stick to beat her with because she left her children in the care of her father. Her moral courage is an example to us all and shame on you who call her a failure as a parent.

And in other news today, Cherie Blair criticises the SAHM for putting 'all their efforts into their children'. Proving once again that women and mothers are up for criticism in society, whatever their choices, in a way that men are not.

This I suppose is society. Damed if you do and Damed if you don't. I doubt if ASSK set out to be this famous. I have seen FT working parents be toxic as well as SAH ones. The debate seems very unintelligent when anyone tried so box people in groups of black or white. We nee to look at all the shades of grey in between.

I don't think many people set out to be figureheads. IIRC, plenty of ANC activists had a similar direct action record to Mandela and indeed one other key player (Tambo?) was kept in even stricter isolation on Robben Island as he was seen as so persuasive.

It must be a combination of actions, charisma and circumstance. But once you are that figurehead, it would be equally a sacrifice and a disappointment to all in your movement if you stepped away from that place... And all those in your movement are someone's child.

Tulips, I fundamentally disagree with your views on the futility of a fight for equality, as I'm sure will almost everyone given this is FWR (and 2012!). But even within your own definition, ASSK had well passed the child carrying and lactating phase when she and her children separated. Is there any age at which you would have felt she was 'free' to do this?

I believe that as a woman, I can do anything a man can do. But as a parent I am personally less sure that I can do anything a child-free person can do -- man or woman. That is my personal choice, I don't judge people who feel differently, but I think an interesting discussion can be had about these issues.

I should be in Afghanistan right now actually, but after having DS I am no longer willing to take the same risks. That does not mean I am sitting at home glued to my child or being inferior to my DH, in fact he has often been the SAHD while I work. I still work on Afghanistan stuff, but not in-country.

Like some other people have said, I am not cut out to win the Nobel peace prize, and that's fine. I respect people who make a different choice, I just think it's interesting to talk about it, and yes that's if it's a man or woman.

All of us have tricky choices to make as parents, the balance between work and family. It's unfortunate that ASSK is a public persona and her choices are publicly debated, especially in a nasty way.

In my field, I do see many men wrestling with the issue of whether to work abroad and leave their families. I have seen some make a choice like me, to continue in their work but not abroad, even at the cost to their career. This is why I don't recognise some of the arguments on this thread -- asking whether ASSK had to stay in Burma is not the same as saying she should sit home in her kitchen and do nothing. I think it does a lot of people a disservice to say that you can't do anything to improve the world unless you are in the field.

Anyway, I don't consider her an unfit parent and I respect her choice. I do think others might have chosen differently, and that should be respected too.

I wonder if ASSK had a daughter as well as/instead of only sons she might have gone back home when they needed her. She might have thought because her boys were with their father they didn't really need her. But she might have felt very differently about leaving a daughter for 15+ years without a mother. Of course it's a purely hypothetical question but still worth thinking about. Perhaps your little heroine is herself sexist....

And you have all proved my point about the futile war you are fighting by all the examples you keep citing of women today who are still being judged and criticised in a way that men are not.

Nothing much has changed in over 20 years. There are still only a handful if women CEO's, as world leaders etc etc. It's not because of sexism. It's because most women's priorities in life shift once they have children. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. Bringing up children is the most important job of any parent, regardless of what paid work they do.

And fwiw I am well educated, had a 10 year professional careeer before having children and am now perfectly happy making looking after my family my priority. And I can see the difference between my children and those whose mothers work full time and I know for sure that my children are healthier and happier and more successful in every aspect of their lives. I'd rather be doing this than shuffling bits of paper around in an office all day and having endless meetings which is what most jobs amount to afaic.

I think it's sexist to assume a father can't care for a daughter solo.

Ah right, so it's not that women's applications are being blocked, or because we're not encouraged to apply for positions of power, but because Good Women automatically succumb to the lure of lactation, tulips?

I'm sorry your experience of paid work was so, er, limited (if you think it's all 'shuffling bits of paper and having endless meetings'), btw.

Mind you, I suppose house arrest at least didn't mean endless meetings. Yep, dead cushy, house arrest.

Am intrigued btw (didn't post as was busy at work depriving my children of proper maternal input) by the assertion ASSK could have been 'lobbying the White House'. To do what? Invade Burma?

(Oh and yes Gandhi was an appalling human being on many levels but he did play an instrumental part in getting the British out of India, which was a Good Thing.)

" your little heroine..."

Ugh

You couldn't make it up!

I think she's inspirational. We need more women like this in the world not less.

If you can't be proud of your mother for being an instrumental part of bringing democracy to your country, then when can you be?

Blimey tulip! Way to go bashing other women for their choices. Fwiw I also had a professional career for 10yrs before becoming a sahm. Doesn't mean I want to bash working mothers or the wonderful, beautiful ASSK though.

How are women's applications being blocked? And why do you need to be encouraged to apply for positions of power? If you want the position just apply for it.

And I'd like to know what jobs you all do. I'm sure the vast majority of you are not making any real difference to anything or saving lives. You are just shuffling paper having meetings probably earning loads if money so you can fill your houses with tat from China.

I really am interested in precisely what you all do that you consider to be so important?

running ok so now you have children. There are plenty of countries in the world that need someone to help them fight for democracy. Why don't you follow in the footsteps of ASSK and kiss goodbye to your children for 15+ years and go and save other people's children somewhere?

You sound terribly angry about what other women choose to do with their time, for someone who is so sure their children are happier and healthier than those of working mothers (not working fathers obviously, those are ok naturally).