what draws you to this part of MN, particularly if you are a man? and if you dont support feminism?

[bejeezusWC]

just what the title says really....

I have read a few contributors, and I really want to point to them and ask 'what are YOU doing here?' but its not on is it

Juggling, BBC4 made a documentary called 'angry wimmin' which talks about political lesbianism and the issue of being with a man. It's as part of a look at the 70s/80s feminism, really interesting. You can find it in YouTube.

Beachcomber found the thread I was thinking about. Re-posting in case anyone has missed it. Twas excellent here

Ps I'm not saying 'go and look on YouTube' in a dismissive way, just on phone so can't link

Thanks Alice - I will watch that

I'm a man. I came here to see if you all really were joyless anti-sex harridans, if anyone remembers that AIBU thread. I would always have called myself a feminist without having really read anything about it. Read around a bit. Realised that my actions don't always live up to my principles and have made some changes. I stay hanging around here for the outside perspective on men and male behaviour.

And when I do come here I hardly every engage in back and forward posts with any one individual, as I find message boards a bit too one-dimensional a method of communication for me. Fine for hearty backslapping, encouragement, you're great, and so on, but it doesn't really work for debates and disagreements for me. Too many misunderstandings that would be corrected and dealt with in a nanosecond face-to-face turn into war on here.

Oh and I rarely open up a thread that has more than 30 or 40 replies to it already as by then it's often deviated wildly from the interesting sounding topic title and is just a rude slanging match. Not always the case but often is. A bit like everything on this thread from page 4 onwards, just a lot of late night guff and nothing to do with the question asked...:(

Anyfucker, I thought it was a necklace you made out of testicles ( that we joked about many moons ago ).

PM, isn't that true of a lot of MN threads though? If there are 2-3 pages of replies, either it's sOmething that's sparked a lot of quick and often similar reactions eg AIBU to park in a P&C space or if it is slower moving, posts have often picked up on one another and moved on from the OP. I doubt there would be any problem if you posted "WRT the question in the OP..." and went back to the first theme, though.

AF, sorry you have been getting those kind of responses.

I really don't understand why FWR regulars are "supposed" to post elsewhere on MN without politics/feminist views coming into it. I'm fairly sure no-one would see it as a cause for attack that, say, the Frothers were talking about government cuts in Politics and were also offering sympathy and advice to an individual affected by such cuts on a Chat thread.

Going back to what empthatic said and I have heard others say; being crap at academic debate as a reason for not posting on here;

I also am pretty crap at it, particularly WRT feminism; because I arent well read about femisinism, it is something I have only recently realised i am. My realisation is built on observation and gut-feelings, I am in the process of reading. But even on a subject I am comfortable with, I dont have the kind of brain to be able to cite references etc etc

I think it is really important for it NOT to be all academic debate and high brow; it excludes ALOT of people...and from what I have seen on here academic debate is largely responsible for veering widely away from the subject being discussed; it is often used to try to 'be clever' and as a bit of a put down IMO....'

Please dont be put off, fellow non-academic-debators!

and, what was your conclusion rooner? joyless anti-sex harridans?

I am always a bit bemused about the academic debate allegation. I have seen very little of this here. Sometimes people mention particular books and authors, but the actual debate is rarely academic.

Maybe some posters fear that we are all very widely read? I don't think this is the case at all. I think there are a small number of posters who are very well read, but most of us haven't read much in terms of books - and thats fine.

Because although some of the ideas around feminism might be mind blowing, most of the actual concepts aren't at all academic. In fact once you get them, I think they seem pretty obvious and apparent

yes I agree only about 4 or 5 regular posters are in academia AFAIK

That's very encouraging bejeezus

And thanks to everyone who suggested interesting things to follow up - I hope to look some of those up later.

< wonders if the feminism boards or even MN in general should be a female only space ? Would probably be difficult to bring about anyway ? >

Maybe it depends which thread you first come across on here Eats - the first one I read was a bit complicated. Maybe just to be on the lookout for newbies and give them a welcoming smile ?

Hi juggling

Yes it will depend which thread and what is the hot topic at the time. The first time I popped over to FWR I was actually disappointed as all the threads seemed to lack any real political analysis - but when I next looked a few weeks later it looked different.

I do always try to be welcoming to newbies, as do some other posters, if it is clear they are vgenuinely wanting to engage and debate. I obviously treat the posters who pop over to say - you are all a bunch of hairy lesbians and what about the menz - differently, as you would expect!

I read this folder (and the US site jezebel.com ) because since having a daughter I'm interested in what women face in their lives and what I can do about it.

Do I support feminism? There's clearly different ideas on what feminism actually is, so to some the answer would be 'yes' and to others the answer is 'no'.

I've only posted once here (to get some feminist input on an issue regarding my daughter's upbringing). And whilst I did receive some useful suggestions on (a) what to do, and (b) what to do about my own attitudes and behaviour, there was some hostility to the fact that I was a man - even though I was asked a question and I answered it, I distinctly remember the comment "I love it when a man tells me what to think" (even though my response was pretty much identical to that put forward by women writers on Jezebel). So it was not really worthwhile contributing any more if my very presence was going to lead to a flame war.

As for content, I prefer it when there's actual concrete examples where action is being taken to academic discussions. Demonstrations that succeeds in getting lads' mags covered up and out of eyeshot are far more effective in discussions about how many angels can dance on the pinhead of the patriachy, as far as I'm concerned.
But then I suppose this is another incidence of men telling women what to think

Back to lurking.

i like your thinking unimaginativedad

bejeezus - absolutely. The species is doomed to one unhappy generation if women ever get equality.

...far more effective THAN discussions...

Aargh.

You may not have meant this dad. But many of the feminists on here don't just discuss things, but do campaign, volunteer, etc as well. Putting feminism into action is I think most feminists on here would agree, absolutely cruciual. But to campaign effectively for example, you do need to understand the nuances of what you are camapigning against e.g. porn, to be effective.

So talking on here isn't just navel gazing. It is absolutely essential to discuss things ifwe are going to take effective action.

I had a not dissimilar initial experience UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername.

But then I think you have to be thick skinned, generally, on MN especially if you're a man.

"I prefer it when ..."

We're not writing for your benefit UDad - though maybe for your daughter's

Would feel more positive about your post if you had decided you could say you were a feminist. After all, what's not to like ?

the thing is boyz i dont think we really care if we offend you or upset you on the FWR boards (i dont) in the nicest possible way of course

its a discussion about women, mostly by women...men welcome, but no one is going to fall over your sensibilities. there arent many spaces/places/times which the situation isnt actually reversed. Very subtly often, Im not taking about women being shouted down on every corner

I go on BME forums because my dcs are MR, and I want insight. Sometimes it feels as if white people are being 'attacked'. I dont need to defend myself..they know it all from every white perspective there is..they live it everyday.

Its the same

yes, you do need a thick skin to stay around. I dont think anyone need apologise for that (yes yes, I know you were not asking for an apology. Some expect one I think)

yes, quite a lot in common with UDTU. If you slide past the tiresome 'rape apologist/male-stereotyping that goes on there's a lot to learn (like a lot of the rest of MN).
I've never self-identified as a feminist though have been 'accused' of being one in rl. I like the acts of 'doing stuff' that make a difference to peoples lives, rather than being an internet warrior. Often the level of debate in FWR is higher than in other sections, sometimes pitifully narrow-minded.
Am also a dad with a 12 yo daughter.

You need to be thick-skinned in any political forum that I have ever attended. No reason why in here should be any different.

Bejeezus, our kids are also mixed race, although it's pretty subtle in terms of appearance. I had to google BME to find out what it was . Do the forums give you anything useful? I am not aware that my kids have any issues with regard to this. Did you have specific incidents, or is it just to gain knowledge? (off track slightly, sorry).