Is sexual orientation a choice?

[WidowWadman]

Julie Bindel seems to think so.

Is it just me or is that actually fairly offensive?

"I think the whole "is it natural" question is a dead end.

It harks back to old school thinking about "the natural order" and that you can divide human behaviour into natural and unnatural and use that distinction to condemn or discourage so called unnatural behaviour - "it is unnatural for women to lead" "lesbianism is unnatural" etc..."

I agree. It's very tempting to argue that X - lesbianism, bisexuality, extended breastfeeding... - is natural (in the 'occuring in nature' sense), because 'unnatural' feels like a hurtful insult, and indeed because many of those things arguably are natural, it's just that our perspective has been skewed by society. But, there's so many examples where natural things are clearly terrible, that it's a logical fallacy to condemn something because it's unnatural. Obviously we don't want to construct a society where everyone behaves like wild animals; I think focusing too much on natural vs unnatural, while scientifically interesting, tends to reinforce the flawed 'natural = good' idea.

On the other hand, it seems that many religious people have a whole different-again meaning for 'natural' which I don't fully understand... it would be great if someone religious could explain what they mean by 'natural'.

Have just read through this whole thread. I'm a newbie to this board and mainly lurking at the moment, but do get put off posting a bit when some threads seem to suddenly disintegrate into insults. I'm all for robust debates and disagreeing btw, just not abosultely jumping on people as opposed to saying I don't agree with you.

I was interested in a point raised earlier about how much (or little) we see lesbians in popular culture. There are books, films, TV series out there, and perhaps they are becoming more mainstream (thinking about things like the L Word and the British equivalent which I've forgotten the name of). If sexuality is potentially fluid and influenced by society and culture, then does it follow that greater exposure to a variety of expressions of sexuality in popular culture might help to balance out some of the conditioning other people have talked about.

I feel really uncomfortable with Bindel's argument about bisexual women. I think I feel uncomfortable full stop with having to categorise and contain something so complex as sexuality. I don't know what I would self-identify as. As time goes on, I'm more happy to live with ambiguity.

I agree with Julie Bindel. I think there are a small group of women whose desire seems to be clearly for men or women. I don't think those women are born that way, we are born with the potential to be sexual, but we learn sexual attraction and desire.

But most women I think have the potential to be attracted to either men or women. And as a RadFeminist who has chosen to put women first, then it does make sense politically to choose to have female partners rather than male partners.

The idea of being born gay has been seized on by some gay people as a way of arguing against discrimination i.e. don't treat us badly because we cant help being like this. While I understand why someone would choose this position, its hardly a positive approach to take to challenging discrimination.

"And as a RadFeminist who has chosen to put women first, then it does make sense politically to choose to have female partners rather than male partners."

Eats, are you saying you choose to be a lesbian purely because you discriminate against men?

Eclictic - never seen deciding not to shag men described as discrimination before.

I am attracted to women including my partner, but I chose to be a lesbian rather than bi, etc, because I did not want to have deal with sexism from men in such a close relationship. I wasn't a radfem when I met my partner. Now I would decide to be a lesbian for political reasons.

Eats, that's my point- not all men are sexist. You chose to have relationships wih women rather than be bi because you didn't want do deal wih sexism in a romantic relationship. You are assuming all men are sexist... That just isn't the case.

Well we disagree on that point eclectic

eats - you say you chose to be a lesbian rather than bi - does that mean that you do find men attractive but even if you were single wouldn't act on that attraction as it's against your politics?

Eats, just to be clear... Are we disagreeing on the point all men are not sexist?

Believing all men are sexist is akin to believing all women are oppressed... Just not the case, IMO.

Can one of the women in a lesbian relationship expect the OH to do all the work in the house (as a sexist man) might? Does this happen or do people think lesbian relationships are more equal at home compared to some male / female relationships?

Yes I think all men are sexist. Yes I think all women are oppressed. And tbh I am always surprised that others don't see this.

Add message | Report | Message poster EatsBrainsAndLeaves Mon 18-Jun-12 21:24:27
Yes I think all men are sexist. Yes I think all women are oppressed. And tbh I am always surprised that others don't see this.

Eats, that maybe your experience but I don't believe it holds true for all women. That's where we part ways.

Eclectic - I think we part ways on lots of stuff

That kind of mass, unevidenced generalistion is dangerous...

It's ironic that you don't see that, when you are fighting for women's rights.

You think all men are sexist? So you dismiss people as sexist, no matter what their views are or how they act, just because they have a penis?

Isn't that sexist in itself?

If denigrating the whole male species as being sexist is not fundamentalism and fascist... I don't know what your definitions of those terms are. It's like saying women are better than men because they are not inherently sexist?

All men are sexist? How do you know?

When you so clearly are sexist.

Male species? What is this, please?

All men are sexist because they are brought up in a culture which teaches them to be so. Some men are very obviously sexist, some far far less obvious. Do you think people aren't influenced by socialisation and culture then?