"You're not like a rape victim"

[BasilBabyEater]

That's what someone said to me years ago, when I pulled him up on some shit he was saying about rape.

I can't remember what shit he was saying exactly; it was probably some rape myth stuff and I pointed out to him that I might be a rape victim for all he knew. And he came back with that. He dismissed out of hand, even the possibility that someone like me could be a rape victim. I was obviously so far from what his idea of a rape victim was, that he could dismiss the idea that I might be one, with no hesitation.

I decided to write something about this - the public perception of a rape victim - and then realised that I didn't have the faintest idea of what it is so decided not to bother. But I wanted to pursue the question.

What is a woman who is "like a rape victim" like? What did you think she was like before you came across feminist ideas? What do you think the general public think a rape victim is like? Do they still have a fixed idea of this? Was this bloke an unusually neanderthallic specimen or was he voicing quite a common perception? Wossitallabaht? Any ideas?

I agree with Cailin and I have pmed you. Sorry about hurting you.

Mashed - its great that you stood up to and challenged the myth rapes on that thread. It doesn't matter if you only have a basic understanding of feminism. I have learned so much on the FWR board.

I would also say having my child murdered infront of me, being murdered, have someone close murdered etc is as devastating as rape.

Maybe it's because of my own personal experience but if non rapists and rape survivors all viewed rape as seriously as murder and took a stance against it, it could be dealt with better for every victim.

Rape changed my life and killed the person I was. For a long time I felt like a ghost and I have had to become someone I wasn't before.

I've skimmed through the thread and wanted to say I'm pleased this discussion is being had.

I; like 25% of women; am a rape survivor.
It created chaos in my life for a while, but it did not 'break' me or put me off sex.

What upsets me the most is that one quarter of women have been through this, so there must be many more who are in support of those 25%.
Who are the women perpetuating the myths?
Do they live in a different world?

Criminals are responsible for the crimes they commit.
No one ever 'asked' to have a crime committed against them.

The way to deal with this is as has been said upthread, make reporting and punishing the crimes easier rather than placing the blame on those who are singled out by the criminals.

of course,i can see how things coyld be worse, for me, for anyone. why does this need to be pointed out? it has the effect of feeling silencing, and shaming.

i don't know if i was devestated. i did not walk around rending my clothes and smearing ashes into my face as i gibbered. i went to my classes. i went to my job. i saw my friends.

i also slept with a lot of men, out of self hatred. I ate a lot of pills. I did no schoolwork and was asked to leave. i thought of ways to stop my stupid life. I tried some of them.

this was a big deal to me. i don't know why - was i just really weak, sheltered, i don't know. I don't think so, but i would say that.

It is probably reassuring to those women who weren't all that upset to hear that their feelings are normal. for me, who was upset it reads (retroactively) as get over it, you big baby, you're doing it wrong. it gives me an extra twinge to think that as i am so far away from the event in time and space i can't change anything now.

X posted with lots of people it took me a loooooong time to work out how to say what i wanted to say, it is still probs wrong [embarassed]

I agree with chibi - it should not be a comparative thing at all.

I think the best thing to say is, society and individuals alike should not assume a rape survivor will always respond in the ways they think expect. It's not about what the other people expect - they should have the humility to see that. People react in a variety of ways. Saying anything else, is IMO getting into the horrible train of thought where people are mentally judging rape surviors' reactions when there is no need to do anything except believe them.

chibi I am so sad (and angry) to hear what happened with you.

Chibi - I am really sorry if what I said feels like silencing and shaming. That was not my intention at all.

It is prefectly fine for it to be a huge deal for you. It doesn't mean that you are weak and sheltered. And it is not wrong if like mashed you think rape is the worsr thing that could happen to you. And your beliefs are not wrong. Even if they are different to someone elses, your beliefs are as valid as anyone elses around all this.

I don't think for a minute that there are women who weren't all that upset about being raped. I have been raped and I don't think it is the worst thing that could have happened to me - but I was still very upset.

I suppose I think the saying that rape is the worst thing that could happen to a woman is I think bound up with so many other fucked up ideas about rape and rape myths. And I am sorry I am not very good at expressing it, so it has come out wrong on this thread.

Chibli, I was devastated by my experience and broken by it.

I'm not afraid to say it and I don't think it makes me weak.

Another question to ask would be : is rape so "normalised" in our society that it's deemed as insignificant as brushing your teeth?

Thanks Eats, it's from lurking on FWR I've gained the strength to fight my corner. But I do have gaps in my knowledge.

I also don't think it makes men powerful to know rape damages. I think it shows rapists as the cowards they are.

I think our society sees two kind of rape victims.

1. Stranger in a dark alley and you should be devastated by this.
2. Rape by someone you know or that you were friendly too and this isn't a big deal really.

Society doesn't do this with other kinds of assaults. Oh you were badly beated up by a partner, well thats not as bad as being beaten up by a stranger. We just accept the reactions and feelings of the victim. And that is what everyone should do with rape.

And child, sadly some women who have been raped believe rape myths themselves and even blame themselves i.e. well if I hadn't been walking home alone at night...Or I should have been clearer with my partner that I really didn't want it...

Given how reluctant some women are to name all rape as rape, I suspect the percentage of women who have been raped is even higher

Hi Mashed,

My experience is the opposite to yours, where you said the person you were was killed off, I worry everything I am is because of what happened to me.

As my abuse started from the age of three (every single weekend), and then the other 6 days in the week my dad was knocking seven bells out of me, my brother and my mum, I can't ever recall a happy memory from my childhood, they are all tainted.

I now question everything I do and wonder if I had a "normal" upbringing would I be a different person, because I do think 10 years of hell with my uncle coupled with 18 years of it with my dad has undoubtedly shaped me.

People who don't know my past comment on how mature I am and how grown up I've always been for my age compared to my peers. I do question sometimes if I would have been mature etc if I hadn't gone through it, I guess I will never know.

I share sympathy with the sleeping around, I did it too, I needed to prove myself I could use sex and not be scared by it, hell I needed to prove I was good at it too. Interestingly, when I went to the police, another of my lovely sodding family members pointed out I couldn't have gone through what I said as I had lots of boyfriends in my teens!!! Yep, whatever!

Mostly I'm fine, but a guy I've become friends with (nothing more, I have a DH) who is 21 commented the other day that I have "little person attitude" which obviously can be taken to mean can be nasty and violent, I agree that I do have a temper, which I keep very carefully in check, because I never want to be like my dad. He was joking around, because he was being annoying and I threatened to wallop him one if he carried on, he then commented something stupid like "I wouldn't want to mess with you, you've got it in you to do that". Can you tell it really bugged me

Interestingly, I don't really discuss what happened with my uncle, but I have started being more open about my Dad and his DV, people still have no idea how to respond to it.

Sorry for the very long posting.

What an interesting thread. Interesting because it throws up so many ideas which are at face value incompatible or even flat out contradictory, but are all right.

So many terrible stories as well, I am so sorry about what has been done to so many people on this thread. Cailin's thread for survivors of child sexual abuse is there for anyone who wants to talk (in case anyone didn't see the post earlier) it is so good that you have made a safe place for people to talk about these things cailin.

The ideas are so interesting.
Like the idea that rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman and it must destroy them. That is problematical as it means that people can dismiss a woman who says she has been raped but does not seem "destroyed". At the same time of course for many women it will devastate but in ways that are not accepted as being the "correct" response. eg it is pretty common for women to be very sexually active after a rape - having lots of partners - and in the post-rape context this is self-destructive behaviour really - stemming from a desire (as I understand it) to regain control of sexual situations, or to reduce sex to something which is "no big deal" to try and minimise the rape. So the person is obviously deeply affected but not in the way that people mean when they say rape will destroy a person.

It's all so complicated. And maybe it has been made complicated to make it harder to make better? If on the one hand you say that saying rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman is incorrect - but at the same time it needs to be accepted that rape is one of the worst things that can happen - it all gets a bit confusing and in a pickle and open to people saying well what on earth do you actually mean.

Tricky.

The point upthread about how we're all supposed to be so liberal and open about sex these days but scratch the surface and it's still not the case at all is a good one.
And the points about how rape victims are supposed to feel shame.
There is something stopping victims speaking, that's for sure.

The survivors of childhood sexual abuse is great for anyone who has been raped young or old.

Rat, I was 12 when I was first raped, I had formed the basis of the person I was to become. In your situation you didn't have that chance. Come over to the thread, that includes Chibli.

Sardine, having more experience of rape survivors than feminism I can say rape survivors who are sexually "aggressive" use that as a self defence mechanism to stop themselves being raped again.

Promiscuous(sp?) rape survivors, especially from a young age have no/little knowledge of sexual choices and believe because it's all they know that their bodies are there to be used by men.

It has not been until my mid 20's that I learnt I did not have to have sex with any man who wanted to use my body.

Chibi, are you ok? Do you want to talk?

Of course it is still a big thing. I'm so sorry I didn't mean to make out it wasn't. The assault at the party sounds awful. And hope you are okay chibi

I guess that the perception that people have about rape is quite full of prejudice. I've been told something similar to the OP sentence "you don't seem like someone who could be raped" by the police after my report.

The prejudice was so deep that police actually filed a report against me for wasting their time but the PF overturned that decision deeming it unfounded.

So the fact that I didn't have many partners in my life, T-total for years and always dressed in a casual way didn't make it possible for me to be raped (by my ex). This kind of prejudice is quite popular I think, so not surprised about that guy's answer.

That's awful Merlin. Was your ex convicted in the end?

I was a 'madonna' rape victim, it was a stranger rape - lot of similarities between my case and Jill Seward - I also wrote a book about it - and I got quite a lot of 'you don't seem like a rape victim' afterwards, meaning, I think, everything from 'you seem very strong and your life doesn't seem to have been ruined' - meant as a compliment - to 'you shouldn't be making money from writing about it' and even 'you must be lying about it because no woman who has been raped would talk or write or campaign about it or even mention it!'. I would wear a T shirt saying 'this is what a rape victim looks like' apart from I no longer want to keep bringing it up (except in threads, occasionally, the writing and campaigning days are over).

A rape victim is a person who has been raped. Actually, I prefer rape survivor, but there should be no expectation of what kind of person gets raped, or how they should behave afterwards.

At the trial, the defence Counsel even tried to make out that because I wasn't weepy enough it had been consensual! Even though for a while it was treated as attempted murder!

Fucking ridiculous, and these myths need killing off. They are damaging all of us.

re: changes in scottish approach to rape cases
www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/strathclyde-report-shows-rape-cases-up-as-laws-encourage-reporting-of-crime-1-2344603

NapDamnYou, I receive this every day "'you must be lying about it because no woman who has been raped would talk or write or campaign about it or even mention it!"!!! If we're enough strong to walk head up out of such an awful situation we must be liars for sure!!

@CailinDana, for the Scottish Law you can't convict someone after he has been released during the same case and I can't report him twice for the same crime. So when the PF decided I was a credible source, charges against him were already dropped.

@skrumle, their approach shouldn't only change "on paper".
They should have an open-minded approach. You've no idea how many women get charged with false allegations accusations by the police up here. That covers the fact they don't want to investigate properly and so they blame the victim.

Sorry Merlin, I only saw your reply now. So am I right in understanding that you reported him, the charges were sent through to the PF, but in the meantime the police considered you not to be credible and dropped the charges, at which point there was no going back?

Thanks everyone for discussing this, it's helped me pin down my htoughts on it and I've realised why I couldn't engage with this before; because I was the Whore rape victim rather than the Madonna one and I subiminally realised that that's what my conclusion would be if I thought about it in any depth. This has helped and I've managed to get something down in writing as a result. Cheers.