"You're not like a rape victim"

[BasilBabyEater]

That's what someone said to me years ago, when I pulled him up on some shit he was saying about rape.

I can't remember what shit he was saying exactly; it was probably some rape myth stuff and I pointed out to him that I might be a rape victim for all he knew. And he came back with that. He dismissed out of hand, even the possibility that someone like me could be a rape victim. I was obviously so far from what his idea of a rape victim was, that he could dismiss the idea that I might be one, with no hesitation.

I decided to write something about this - the public perception of a rape victim - and then realised that I didn't have the faintest idea of what it is so decided not to bother. But I wanted to pursue the question.

What is a woman who is "like a rape victim" like? What did you think she was like before you came across feminist ideas? What do you think the general public think a rape victim is like? Do they still have a fixed idea of this? Was this bloke an unusually neanderthallic specimen or was he voicing quite a common perception? Wossitallabaht? Any ideas?

Yes, yes it makes complete sense.

When I shot back to this bloke: "So what is a rapve victim like?" he looked really shocked. The shock was because his brain was realising that his sub-conscious ideas , conflicted with his conscious ones and that he was going to have to examine those ideas (always an unwelcome prospect for some people )

Well frankly it's disgusting we're not teaching young girls how to keep them safe because we'd rather put on rose coloured glasses. How very 'modern' of Western society..

Cailin I'd gush over how sorry I am but I know how frustrating that can be, so assuming you're not Australian like me and it's not too early to drink: xx

Thanks Lurking, seeing as wine is off the agenda for you for a few hours, have some

Not pity, but anger then, lurking? It is appalling that these people are around - and absolutely agree that it is shocking we have 'stranger danger' coming out of our ears but not that message about attacks from people we know.

Much and all as we live in sex-soaked society and are supposed to be so open minded and liberal, when it comes down to it, people are still very squeamish about sex. By saying you're a rape survivor you're saying you had a forced, possibly violent, sex and in our society that's akin to standing up and saying you love bondage and describing a few of your good moves. There is still a sense that as an abusive survivor by talking about it you are talking about something nasty and inappropriate, in a way that talking about a terrible car crash isn't. It's a totally taboo subject.

But what can we teach young girls to 'keep safe'?

All the ideas I've heard before all control womens behavours

We teach the boys and the men - why not? And we make it easier to report rape and get a the rapist put in prison.

The best protection against a rapist is that he doesn't exist in the first place, or he's locked up.

If women knew that, if they were raped, everyone would believe them and their rapist would very likely be caught, stigmatized by society, and put in prison, they'd feel much safer.

Nothing BlackOut. Nothing a child does or doesn't do will influence someone who is planning to abuse them. Predators who attack children usually groom them and are often either the child's parent, or someone the parent knows so the child grows up in an environment that encourages and condones abuse. All that can be done is to teach children about bodily autonomy and sex from a young age so that they can recognise when inappropriate things are happening and hopefully tell someone safe like a teacher or doctor. Even then, it's quite a long shot as children naturally trust the adults around them and are very slow to question their actions.

Btw it works with drunk driving doesn't it? We didn't teach people to wear body armour to protect them from crashing cars - we stigmatized the idea of driving when drunk. And it had a really big effect. So I am not just being idealistic, it's practical.

I agree with you LRD, any prevention should focus entirely on the abusers/rapists and anything that focuses on victims should centre around understanding and support.

Agree with your point about it being a taboo subject CallinDana

I feel it should be spoken about more often the challenge the myths and put the responsibilty back onto the abuser. The same that has been done with the 'I believe you'

Back to Jill Saward for a minute, does anyone else remember the criticisms she faced for publishing her story? It was terrible, as if she was the perpetrator and not the victim of a crime. Some people said she shouldn't profit from it. I wonder if I can find a link, it was in 1990 so pre-internet.

I agree BlackOut, but we are a long long way from that IMO. Even people who are quite sympathetic to rape survivors are reluctant to engage with survivors of childhood abuse. That's especially true on MN IMO. Often what happens is someone will start a thread talking about how they're suffering as a result of abuse, and there will be then 10 or so replies along the lines of "Sorry that happened, you should seek counselling..." and that's it. Basically the message is, I'm sorry but I don't know what to say to you and I don't really want to talk about it. It contributes a lot to the feeling that abuse survivors have of being alone and unheard.

That is bad, Cailin. I had no idea but I will take care about it now. Thanks for speaking out about it.

Thanks LRD. I do think people mean well, it's just so dispiriting and lonely for a person to open their heart about something so painful and personal only to be met with, basically, a wall of silence. The amount people need to talk about this is pretty obvious from the fact that I started an abuse survivors' thread on the 19th of March and it's now on its 5th part. 4,500 posts in less than three months. What people need to remember is that abuse/rape survivors (of which I am both, unfortunately) aren't a species all of their own, they're just normal people who want to talk about something terrible that happened to them, to try to come to terms with it. All it takes to be there for a survivor is to say "I'm listening."

I've seen that thread in Active Convos a fair few times, if it's the one I think.

I can imagine it would be very lonely. I suppose we've got to the stage now where there's a social vocabulary (on MN anyway) for showing rape survivors you care, and hopefully your threads will help construct that for survivors of abuse too.

Argh, sorry, as soon as I pressed post I realized that last bit comes across as if I'm saying 'it's your job to sort out a vocabulary and I don't mean that in the least. I mean I hope people will be seeing them, and it'll contribute to a community where more people feel able to say things, like that they are listening.

Really interesting discussion.

I think on MN posters often suggest counselling, when whta they really men, is I haven't got a clue what to say to you, but don't want to ignore you either. So it is partly reaching out and partly silencing i.e. go and talk to a professional and not me.

It annoys me how so many people don't see that the extreme vilification our society has of paedophiles actually makes the victims feel more ashamed - sorry can't explain it very well.

In terms of what a rape victim looks like - as a teenager I absorbed the idea that a rape victim was someone who was vulnerable i.e. the drunk woman, the shy unstreetwise woman alone in a rough part of town, the neglected child that apaedophile homed in on. And this is all about the myth of rapists being strangers, rather than friends, relatives and partners. Of course basic feminism soon made me realise that myth wasn't true. But i still see people posting this myth on MN in various ways.

I agree that rape victims are "supposed" to be totally devastated by the rape and for it to affect their life totally. I think its the myth that rape is the worst thing that could happen to a woman. Not saying it is not awful, but worst things can and do happen. And if you are not devastated then it "means" that the rape wasn't such a big deal after all.

Yes, hopefully. I'd like to get to the point where, in a personal conversation about childhoods, I would be able to say "I was sexually abused" without the other person going silent and getting totally flustered. I can totally understand why people have such a difficulty with it, but it's not good enough really because it creates a situation where children who are in the midst of abuse can't speak up about it, and where people who have been abused suffer in silence for years and years due to not feeling they can tell anyone about it. All this bollocks about protecting children and "Every Child Matters" is only so much hot air until people are willing to wade in and actually help when it comes down to it.

X posted LRD, I didn't think you were saying that at all :)

I get what you're saying about paedophiles, Eats, and the same is true of rapists IMO. The guy who raped me was my boyfriend, perfectly nice guy, well liked by a lot of people, we are still in contact due to mutual friends (though I hardly ever see or talk to him, only when I can't avoid it) and I think everyone would struggle to believe he was a rapist. I think it's because of that that I haven't told a single soul what he did in real life because he in no way fits the traditional "rapist" stereotype.

I think people sometimes say counseling because they're thinking it's so serious/unusual, they could not possibly have the experience to say the right thing, but then it is actually comforting to know that experiences are not unusal and you'd expect on a site this big to find other people who can empathize. I think with the statistics for rape (and sorry, I wouldn't know them about child abuse but I know it is not as uncommon as some people think), it's a mistake to assume someone who's been raped is completely out of your realm of experience if you have not been raped. You will almost certainly know someone who has had that experience even if they don't say so.

Agreed Cailin. The myth we are fed is that rapists are monsters in some way, rather than the ordinary nice guy everyone gets on with. And that leads to people saying when someone is accused of rape, even when they hardly know the guy - I can't believe he would be a rapist.

Its either 20 or 25% of women are raped or seriously sexually assaulted - can't remember which. So not rare at all. The stranger type of rape I suspect is rarer