Radfems and transsexuals – an outsider’s view

[NoviceProFemGuy]

I?ve been reading the recent threads discussing feminism and transgender, and pretty challenging I?ve found them too. As an outsider, though, I can?t help thinking a lot of the radfems? concerns aren?t, in reality, an issue when it comes to the practicalities of how men oppress women.

This is going to be a bit of a long post, so to save it all appearing at the top of subsequent pages (assuming there are any) I?ll put the meat of it in a separate post below.

From what I can make out radfems see two main problems with the concept of transgender. First, it reinforces the gender roles women are forced into, and that feminism aims to dismantle. Second, by allowing a person to define themselves as a woman based on a feeling, it destroys the distinct biological identity of women, without which it is not possible to claim women are a group discriminated against on the basis of that distinctness.

But from my experience of men, the existence of transgender people is never used as a weapon against female assigned at birth women. Though accepting we now treat MtoF transsexuals legally and socially as women, men either still don?t really see them as women or regard them as a category of women quite distinct from FAAB women. In either case transgender MtoFs are so few and far between they have no impact on how men stereotype and treat women in general, treatment which is based on women?s perceived biological identity (even though in reality much of that perceived identity is nothing more than socially imposed conventions).

When men do fight back against feminism in an effort to protect their privilege they do so by attacking its aims and denying there is any need for it in the first place. It?s pretty standard to portray feminists as bolshie women who have a bee in their bonnet about non-existent injustices and who don?t really care about equality and the rights of all, but just want to replace male privilege with their own.

The debate over transgender plays to both those tactics. Most men won?t see transgender as an issue and won?t understand why there needs to be such a fuss over it because it is irrelevant to how they stereotype women. They will also see the radfems treatment of transgender people as clear evidence of how feminists are happy to oppress other minorities when it suits them.

That doesn?t mean radfems (and other feminists) don?t have completely valid concerns over the activities of some transgender people. I can see there are times when they can rightly insist that the needs of FAAB women to have spaces to themselves in which to discuss certain sensitive issues specific to FAAB women must be respected. And when that respect is not given women justifiably get very upset.

But other than that I think feminism would look more reasonable to men, and hence have more chance of influencing their behaviour, if feminists based their treatment of transgender people on respect, compassion and understanding, rather than what, to an outsider, looks like dogma. Because of that I?m glad to see how much mainstream feminist thought does such an approach.

You see I knew all we needed was a man to sort this all out.

Thanks everso.

so, in summary, radical feminists should just be a bit nicer, yeah?

Cheers for that insight

"The debate over transgender plays to both those tactics. Most men won?t see transgender as an issue and won?t understand why there needs to be such a fuss over it because it is irrelevant to how they stereotype women. They will also see the radfems treatment of transgender people as clear evidence of how feminists are happy to oppress other minorities when it suits them."

Transgender is clearly not irrelevant as to how men stereotype women, as in order for trans women to 'pass' they have to reinforce the sterotypes.

As for feminists oppressing trans women: I think it is women-born women only meeting that are being cancelled, not trans people only meetings.

The rest of your post is so man-loving. Why do you think feminists should worry about how reasonable we look to you?

Actually my main concern is for feminism to start to look not just more reasonable to men but for men to understand it's critique of oppression and actually support our aims.

Molasses ? I?ve gradually in recent years come to see how men oppress women. Believe me it?s not easy for someone who?s grown up in a privileged position to grasp this and recognise the need to change his behaviour. When it comes down to it, if I understand feminist theory correctly, women will not be truly liberated until all men change their behaviour. They?re not going to do this off their own bat. It needs to be pointed out to them the harm they do by what will often seem to then perfectly reasonable actions.

Re-reading my last paragraph I can see that came out as lecturing feminists what to do. That?s wrong and I apologise for it. But I do feel that understanding and engaging with men is an important way forwards, and presenting the arguments of feminism in a form they (and I) can grasp and appreciate can help free women from men?s oppression.

novice, you shouldnt have said you were male, once you do that your fair game for abuse, ridicule and general disrespect.
i'm sure you were simply offering your opinion and diddnt feel you 'had to sort these poor misguided feminists out' i mean we all know that all they need is a man to do that and they will see the light.
dont expect equality on a feminist tread, if you have a penis your demonised, simple as that.

Yes it's best we focus on educating the men rather than this silly women's stuff we whitter about. I mean what did conscious raising ever achieve?

I'm wondering if when we raise this stuff we have dinner on the table and slippers by the fire? That might help I think. Makes it much more ladylike and reasonable.

Hothead ? yes you are right, they can do. I?ve had to as well. But it was not until my late 40s that I began to appreciate what feminism was saying. Up until them I could be as sexist as any man, and some of my past behaviour shames me. I don?t want other men to have to wait as long to see the light. Of course I need to play my own role in educating my fellow men, but I can only make a small impact on my own.

Thanks heavens you're here too miaow. Well have this sorted by dinner I'm sure.

alice, who are you arguing with? certainly isnt me .....must be the demons who live between your ears !

No argument here. I'm just doing some knitting while you guys get it sorted. Much more ladylike.

so anyway, what is for dinner alice ?

i figure if your going to treat me as though i treated you in a sexist way i might as well have done.

Come on Alice, let's go into the kitchen and leave these fellows to sort this mess out.

do you want equality alice? and if you do who do you want to have equality with? men perhaps? , this doesnt mean we all have to focus on men, but they will have to be included in the conversation, IF you want equality with men.

Interesting that you see men changing being voluntary.

People with power tend not to surrender it voluntarily by reasoned argument. That's why they were digging them out of holes in the ground all over the Middle East.

prolesworth and alice...terrific, typicly resonable responses, first you argue against ideas no one has put forward , insinuating that me and others have said them when we havent, then you mock , then suggest you should suffle off to the kitchen! amazing!

thats very true julia, people with privilige are unlikely to give it up unless they have to. wether it's class or gender.

Goodness, equality. Well I'm not sure my brain is quite up to thinking about such complex matters. Would be much better if you guys could just let me know what you've decided once you've used your clever man brains. Too much thinking makes me all giddy.

Slice of cake, proles? I made it myself. We can swop recipes if you like?

marking place

i have been baking with my boys this afternoon as it go's, only what i bake will no doubt taste less bitter.

hothead, i see what your saying but inequality of nature, men cant have babies, isnt something we can change there are many other ways equality can be reached, equal pay, perental leave, quotas on boards etc.