Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

GAG, most gender nonconforming people aren't transgender. I think what we're trying to do here is think about the wellbeing of all gender nonconforming adults and children, not just the ones who want to change from one gender to another.

Maybe you just need to think about this as being a little bit more nuanced than trans people and everyone else.

Or rad fems and everyone else?

Yuh, I see what you mean...

Kim, I never answered your question yesterday about the Westboro church and freedom of speech. I have only just come back to the thread now.

I would say what it is acceptable to say depends on the context. I don't think they should be allowed to come and give a talk at a school, or turn up and protest at a funeral, but I don't object to them having airtime on Louis Theroux's tv show.

I think Peter Tatchell is good on this issue.

You're confusing sex with gender GothAnne. That's probably why rad fem rhetoric is confusing you.

Rad fems want to smash the gender system (the set of power relations that enshrine male dominance and female submission), but that doesn't mean we think that biological sex doesn't exists.

GothAnne I don't claim to be anything like an expert on transgenderism (and I have purposely not mentioned whether I have trans people as friends/family).

What I do know a fair bit about though, is what it is to be a woman in a patriarchal society, and thereby to be oppressed and dictated to by a hierarchy based on biological sex via the mechanism of the gender binary. (My issue is with the socially constructed gender binary, not with the state of being of biological sex. Bit like how people of colour take issue with the social construction of race but not with the physical manifestations of human ethnicity.)

I don't wish to dictate to transgender people - I can imagine some of the difficulties they encounter and how painful many aspects of their lives could be. I think they too suffer due to the strict gender binary - I see this as something trans people have in common with radical feminists. I don't agree with surgery, but that is a personal choice that only the individual can make.

My only issue is that some MTF trans people claim to be women with the same status and state of being as biological women. As a biological woman, I think I have the right to have an opinion on that.

Also GothAnne are you sure about Pretenbian mocking photos? I'm surprised by that because I'm familiar with the site and I find its tone to generally be frank but not unkind.

Lots of lesbians are very upset at being called transphobic because they don't wish to have sexual relations with MTF transpeople. Many lesbians have been harassed/cyberstalked, etc because they dare to say that they do not consider MTF trans to be women and therefore do not want to have sex with them. Lots of MTF trans think lesbain women should accept them as women (even when they still have their penises) and have sex with them. (Such trans people have a charming term for this - they call it 'breaking through the cotton ceiling').

It would seem that having sexual access to lesbians and access to women only safe spaces is considered a right for certain MTF transpeople. It is considered transphobic hate speech to point out how entitled and fucked up this is.

Oh yes, the cotton ceiling.

Does anyone have a link to that discussion between the feminist and the trans activist about the cotton ceiling and why lesbians are transphobic for refusing to sleep with MTF Trans who still have penises?

I can't find it.

Im not understanding why it is called 'cotton ceiling'? but it feels horrid

Cotton ceiling means they want to break through the cotton fabric to access women's vaginas. It's a rape image.

This was the discussion between the rad fem and the trans activist:

factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/

thats what it conjured for me

do they expect to be having PIV sex then?

Thanks NYAC, that was exactly the one I was thinking about.

I remember reading it pulling bejeezus' face. :o

Nyac jesus that link

Have only read the first few exchanges but this

" The workshop at the Pleasure and Possibilities Conference is a safer space for trans women to get together, name our experiences of oppression and exclusion, and discuss ways of changing culture to break down these barriers ? as fits with the theme of the conference which is centred around overcoming the sexual barriers various groups of marginalized women experience."

So it's OK for trans people to have meetings for trans only to discuss how to get gay women to have sex with them, but not for radical feminists to get together to talk about issues that effect women globally like contraception and abortion rights, rape, DV...??

I am just gobsmacked.

And with all of this there are a few vocal arseholes who are causing shitloads of trouble and just spoiling things for all the people who just want to quietly get on with their lives.

My favourite quotes:

(From the Trans person)
"Trans women?s bodies are female bodies, whether or not we have penises."

"What trans women are saying is that we are women, and thus should be considered women sexually, and thus be considered viable partners for women who are attracted to women."

What did I say ^ thread about pro cake and pro eating it? :o

thanks for that link-it is really inetersting. havent got time to read whole conversation just now, but, is this statement considered to be true by most trans people or just trans-activists?

I also think that it is rooted in the belief that trans women are not women, which is transphobic and transmisogynist

It's just mind-boggling isn't it.

Lesbians are transphobic for having the temerity to want to choose their own sexual partners, and to choose not to have sex with people with penises.

Just mind-boggling. I can't get over it.

Trans is a male colonisation/invasion exercise over women. That's what women sadly aren't recognising. We don't have anything in common with them, any more than French people had anything in common with all those Germans who moved to France during WWII, even though they were all sharing the same ground. It's a completely separate set of interests, many opposed.

Kim says she doesn't think she is a woman so I guess that is your answer.

Just a small vocal group of extremists who are saying this stuff and causing trouble for lesbians and feminists. And oh look what a shocker these groups are both female.

Are there groups of extreme FTM trans activists doing this sort of stuff? I would be very interested to know.

It's not so mind-boggling when you realise that people with penises are men. And because of male supremacy men have always viewed themselves as having a sexual right to access women, and for women to be a sexually available resource for them. That's how these people view lesbian groups. It's the attitude of the harem keeper.

Kim says that Kim is female though and ticks "woman" and "female" on official forms.

If someone is being called "she" that is saying that they are a woman. It's crazy to try and separate those two things out.

We can't have the term woman reduced to meaninglessness just because some men are confused about their own identity or grabby about others.

Well I'm still feeling boggled. Just such a whopping sense of entitlement.

It's familiar isn't it?