Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Kim - I would say that the fight is with patriarchy and not with radical feminists.

Fighting patriarchy takes guts, and individuals coming together to find strength in shared experiences.

Groups of individuals who share an experience need to get together and develop their political analysis and identity. Then perhaps they can join with other groups who have different but shared interests in overcoming the oppressive system.

i think my experiences do define me as a woman to some extent
but those experiences are unique to woman because of their sex

it would be like me saying I feel like I am a black person, i belive I have been born in the wrong body. To undergo some sort of skin pigmentation and surgery to make me look more 'black'.....i may pass as black and I may feel more happy. but I would not have had the life experiences that a black person has had. And a black person in a majority white country certainly has had experiences that are unique to black people because of their skin colour...

Yunno if transactivits got together and decided that their fight was with patriarchy and with the gender hierarchy, they would find themselves on the same page as radical feminists.

Which is not to say that they would be invited to FAAB events - but there could be a joining of forces in appropriate spaces.

I won't hold my breath though - everything I know about transactivism is that it reinforces the gender binary hierarchy (plus adding an extra 'have your cake and eat it' dimension.)

I find this whole thing mind-boggling, tbh. Radical feminists (formerly known as feminists) want gender to be irrelevant because they have witnessed that behaviour, preference, action is largely gender-blind, except where the patriarchy takes a particular hold. Surely that would benefit trans who do not wish to proscribe to their born sex gender behaviour etc? Yet, trans are immensely gender-proscribing which infuriates the fuck out of me. And kim, you are steeped in that proscribing. Do you realise that?

rulers i might have more 'awe' for you as a woman doing that than I would a man, not because i think a woman cant do that kind of thing and man can; but because you are demonstrating that is not the case, and because I am a mother to 2 dds and it is good for them...

...it would be more gratitude than awe i suppose (cos I aint sailing across the Atlantic!)

But bejeezus, I did it as a sailor. Not many sailors have done it, let alone people. That I am a woman is neutral, surely? (although, I get what you're saying given that the revolution hasn't happened and all that).

Yes, remember when feminists were just feminists.

Some people have power because others are oppressed.

Sadly, in some cases, some feminists have a vested interest in maintaining gender stereotypes and actively work to keep them.

Be wary the feminist who comes out with the generalisation that "men are like this".

I think there is some confusion here though hothead - it is not theoretically possible for a trans person to identify as a radical feminist, they hold totally different theoretical standpoints about what constitutes gender. If they say they are a radical feminist they are confused about what radical feminism is.

A good analogy might be if an atheist like Richard Dawkin suddenly said he wanted to attend a Catholic mass, take communion, because he really was a catholic at heart - and the catholics say "but you don't believe in God, you can't be a catholic" and he says "but being a catholic isn't about believing in god it's about having lovely services with uplifiting music, music is central to my life so I want to be a catholic "

I am a wishy washy liberal socialist feminist, not a radical feminist - so I too am excluded, by definition, from a conference for radical feminists in exactly the same way as I would be from a conference for catholics.

For a trans person to share the view of radical feminists on gender they would have to cease to be trans. Rad fems say gender is only a social construct, which means that it is potentially totally fluid depending on the context one is brought up in. Trans activists say that they have a sense of a core gender identity that is at odds with their biology.

So AIUI for Rad fems Gender = fluid for Trans Gender = fixed. For both of them it is the issue of gender which rattles their cages but they disagree at a very fundamental level.

Personally I think both positions are wrong and mine is right

rulers not neutral for me Im afraid

I am always on the look out for role models to balance out all the media crap

Heavily into Wonder Woman at the moment so dd can stop being captured by boy baddies and rescued by boy superheros at school playtime...I think most of the boys in her class now spend a large amount of their playtimes tied up in truth lassoo!

I'm going to put **

**some men, those who have been brought up in a patriarchal culture, NOT your Nigel, I hasten to add

in future.

What catrus said.

(Apart from the last sentence .)

"A good analogy might be if an atheist like Richard Dawkin suddenly said he wanted to attend a Catholic mass, take communion, because he really was a catholic at heart - and the catholics say "but you don't believe in God, you can't be a catholic" and he says "but being a catholic isn't about believing in god it's about having lovely services with uplifiting music, music is central to my life so I want to be a catholic "

Dawkins actually identifies as cultural anglican - he does do Christmas and stuff, as do many secularists (including myself).

Because she isn't a biological women - and because that counts for radical feminists.

She will be welcome at many other events that aren't poles apart from her politics/situation.

I know that WW (about Dawkin) which is why I chose the catholic analogy

For Dawkin to be a cultural anglican is like a tanswoman being a liberal feminist, no big deal.

But Dawkin's views and those of practicing Catholics (should probably say Roman Catholics) are fundamentally opposed - if he tried to redefine what it was to be a RC that is like a transwoman redefining what it is to be a radical feminist.

no-one has the right to redefine the core beliefs of another group and claim the right to then be one of them... just illogical - isn't it?

I do not understand this "we want to smash the binary" then going on and on about "biological women in the next breath.

Worse is the dictating of how trans people should live their lives. "You just sit there and be suicidal, while we smash the gender binary (even though we intend to do that by sitting in a corner by ourselves and slagging of anyone who doesn't agree with us)"

Most of you on here sound like you've never even met a trans person, yet you're all self proclaimed experts.

As for all the mealy mouthing about the meeeean trans people, there are rad fem blogs which talk about trans women as if they are sub human (referring to post-surgery genitalia as "fuck-holes" which "smell like dead meat" . Then you have sites like the rad-fem run "Pretendbian" which posts photographs of lesbian trans women and mocks them.

Kritiq and WW, thanks for speaking up.

Kim, I'm sorry about the hard time you've had here. There are very supportive online communities, I hope you find them and I wish you well on your journey.

you dont have to be an 'expert' on transgender people to know that MTF TG people are not the same as women born as women

you dont have to know 'one'...it's not personal

I do not understand this "we want to smash the binary" then going on and on about "biological women in the next breath.

Worse is the dictating of how trans people should live their lives. "You just sit there and be suicidal, while we smash the gender binary (even though we intend to do that by sitting in a corner by ourselves and slagging of anyone who doesn't agree with us)"

Most of you on here sound like you've never even met a trans person, yet you're all self proclaimed experts.

As for all the mealy mouthing about the meeeean trans people, there are rad fem blogs which talk about trans women as if they are sub human (referring to post-surgery genitalia as "fuck-holes" which "smell like dead meat" . Then you have sites like the rad-fem run "Pretendbian" which posts photographs of lesbian trans women and mocks them.

Kritiq and WW, thanks for speaking up.

Kim, I'm sorry about the hard time you've had here. There are very supportive online communities, I hope you find them and I wish you well on your journey.

referring to post-surgery genitalia as "fuck-holes" which "smell like dead meat" . Then you have sites like the rad-fem run "Pretendbian" which posts photographs of lesbian trans women and mocks them

this is foul

have you ever been on the Petrol Heads website? where men have discussed raping a 15 year old girl and 'blood is natures lubricant'?

its all foul