Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

whiteshores I know you're not saying that it's identical to misogyny, and that's why I'm saying it's not a useful term.

The erasure and denial of the reality of female bodies is down to misogyny not "biophobia".

I'm not talking about whether it's a useful word for me, I'm talking about whether its' a useful word for women. Given that it obscures the misogyny that lies at the root of the idea that "any man can be a woman", I'd say it was not just not useful, but actually working against women's interets.

But you're calling "girl" a gender role SeaHouses. It isn't.

In feminist terminology masculinity and feminity are gender roles, or rather sex roles. They are socially constructed. The sexes they are ascribed to however (women and girls, men and boys) are real and will exist long after "gender" (the sex hierarchy that places men over women) has disappeared.

I'm not calling girl a gender role. I'm saying that bullies often refer to feminine boys as girls because in the minds of the bully, 'girl' is a gender role.

And that is biophobic. The bully is denying the victim's right to define themselves based on their biological sex, and is instead defining them according to the bully's idea of gender roles.

The bullying is saying that acting like a girl makes you a girl. The bullies insist that gender roles should define who is male and who is female, rather than biological sex.

Nyac

I'm sorry you feel that way, and obviously you can use whichever words you wish.

However, biophobia is a useful word for me because as I define it, it can equally be used for men and women.

A biological man denied the right to a shared space with other biological men, and told that his biology is irrelevant could be said to be experiencing biophobia.

In this case, the use of the word biophobia would not refer to any type of misogyny. Or do you believe it does?

Eg. Could this man say that he is experiencing misogyny?

misandry surely?

I would say yes, Whiteshores. I think it is similar to homophobia towards men. Without misogyny, it would be very difficult for people to justify any kind of homophobia. I think that it was recognised for a long time that the two issues were linked.

Sea - I have been thinking about your bully post since you posted it and I'm not sure. Just thinking aloud - but I am not convinced bullies are really saying the boy is not a boy. What the bully seems to be saying you are really a boy but you are acting like a girl and being a girl is a really bad thing so I will give you a hard time for it. Yes it is about gender roles, but maybe more about seeing girls as a negative thing to be?

And yes homophobia is used to control both men and women. Womean getting "too" feminist for example are often "accused" of being lesbians whether they are or not. It is an easy way to police behaviour for both sexes

SeaHouses I'm not talking about homophobia. :)

I'm talking about a biological man denied the right to a shared space with other biological men, and told that his biology is irrelevant could be said to be experiencing biophobia.

He may be straight, bisexual, or gay, and may possess any gender-identity.

The point I am trying to make, is that this specific form of oppression against either men or women could be called biophobia.

When referring to women's experience of it, it falls under misogyny.

When referring to men's experience of it, it falls under.... ?

Misogyny is also a very broad term, and encompasses all of the harmful actions and attitudes against women. I'm trying to refer to a subset of those actions and attitudes, which is a one of very, very many specific ways in which misogyny finds expression.

Eg. I'm not trying to refer to all misogynistic actions, but one specific type of misogynistic action.

If I was complaining about biophobia against me, you would know I was specifically being denied the right to have a shared biological space with other biological women.

If I complained about misogyny against me, it could mean any of a vast number of misogynistic attitudes or actions.

Biophobia is a word to refer to which individual misogynistic action I specifically mean.

Oh, in addition to denied shared space, also denial of my right to choose my biological identity as my primary one.

To me, its a bit like saying 'female genital mutilation' doesn't need to exist as a phrase, because it is a form of misogyny and should just be called misogyny.

Well, yes it is a form of misogyny, but refers to a very specific expression of that misogyny.

Nyac Thu 10-May-12 21:11:29
Males are more likely to commit violent crime than women, far more likely, especially sexual crimes. That's the issue. Whatever their "gender identity".

I asked for some figures. You were unable to provide. Please try again. Until you can do so, I suggest you refrain from using ignorant phrases about transgendered people being a threat as its based on opinion rather than any evidence.

Brains, yes, I agree with that. That is why I would say that biophobia is always connected to misogyny. The reason for insisting that gender roles is always more important than biological sex is because gender roles are a way of controlling women because we have been allocated the attributes of he subordinate group as our gender role.

So a boy being called a girl is biophobic. The bully is defining the term 'girl' as a gender role rather than a description of biological sex. He is then forcing his definition on to the victim's identity, despite the victim's desire to identify as his biological sex not by the bully's imposed definition.

But being described as a girl is also a slur - because the purpose of imposing gender roles (and the bully is using girl to mean gender role, not me) is to impose a subordinate role on women, and this boy is being given the subordinate role.

Whiteshores, I am using homophobia as an analogy. Homophobia against men is highly connected to misogyny. Biophobia against men is highly connected to misogyny, because the purpose of biophobia is to promote the imposition of gender, and the purpose of gender is to make one group of people (almost all of whom are biological women) into a subordinate group.

Another analogy would be racism. If I lived in a society where it was unacceptable to read books written by black people, or eat food based on recipies created by black people because black people were considered 'less', I would be discriminated against by other white people for doing so. The reason why I wouldn't be allowed to do those things would be because I was white (which would be a prejudice against me a white person), but the underlying reason for me experience that prejudice as a white person is society's hatred of black people.

Hmmm

www.crimestoppers-uk.org/crime-prevention/latest-crime-statistics

This kind of info is all over the internet, but my PC is too slow to download the pdf documents and I cba to plough through them. The fact that men commit much more violent and sexual crime than women is not an unknown or radical idea. I have been to official police presentations which have said the same thing. Crime is gendered - some committed more by men and some more by women

Thanks for the clarification SeaHouses, I completely agree with your post. :)

Going along the same line of thought, words/definitions such as the following may also be helpful:

A person who bio-identifies = a person who prefers to self-identify with their biological sex from birth, rather than gender-identity (which may be private, undecided, neutral, or simply not the way the individual wishes to identify), or gender-role (which is externally imposed).

bio-identity = An identity factoring in biological sex assigned at birth as the prime determinant, which individuals may or may not choose as relevant to their self-identity.

Using these words, I could say that for myself as an individual: I am a woman with a female bio-identity (in real life I would say my gender-identity is private, here I do mind saying that it is neutral).

Equally, someone who finds gender more relevant to them (rather than biological sex) can state (for example): I am a woman with a female gender-identity (they may want to keep their biological sex private, or find it irrelevant to them).

This way each group has a means of self-expressing.

typo - 'here I do not mind saying that it is neutral'

'biophobia' means 'fear of life'... rather an odd coinage!

By that thinking, homophobia would mean fear of sameness, but we all know it actually means fear of same sex sexuality.

'Bio' in this case as simply shortening 'biological' as in biological sex.

Its pretty common for words to have more than one meaning, and at least the use of 'biophobia' in a discussion about biology vs gender wouldn't have people wondering if we were talking about the environment. :)

I actually feel incredibly excited about a word that would finally accurately describe how I wish to identify.

To me, my gender-identity is a fairly intimate, personal thing, hidden only in the private recesses of my mind (except here on mumsnet where I feel free to anonymously divulge that information).

However, my bio-identity is clearly visible and more relevant to my experience of life in terms of how it effects my choices and society's response to me.

Therefore, I choose to associate myself with my female bio-identity, and outside of anonymity to keep my gender-identity private.

Others can choose whether to associate themselves with their assigned biological sex or with their internal gender identity as they please. :)

I've been googling the term and it is already in use. There are people already using it to talk about issues of sexism and racism, and it already has a meaning when talking about people's more general attitudes to biology:

'Biophobia ranges from discomfort in natural places to contempt for whatever is not man-made, managed or air-conditioned. Biophobia is also manifest in regarding nature as nothing more than a disposable resource.'

I would say that there is no contradiction to this use of the word and the use of the word to talk about hatred of people who identify by biological sex.

Well, looks like you and I are not alone in feeling the way we do SeaHouses. I'm willing to bet a number of individuals would prefer to choose biological birth assignment as a major component of self-identity, and not to have it automatically assumed that gender-identity is their preferred choice for themselves. :)

The key word there being choose of course.

Everyone should be able to choose whether their bio-identity or their gender-identity is more important and relevant to them personally.