Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

I want a world where every individual can decide for themselves which of their features make up part of their main identity, and which features they wish to share experiences of in groups of commonality.

I want every human being to have the right to express their 'sameness' or their 'uniqueness', depending on which they value more.

I want every human being (no matter what), to be treated as a human being, and not in any way a greater or lesser human being because of their features (chosen or not).

Can someone provide me with some stats about crimes committed by the transgendered community, including a break down on pre-op and post-op status? Please?

That does not mean individual cases which may or indeed may not be reflective of the community as a whole. I'm like to see some stuff thats a little better researched and studied and reflected.

I'm rather sick of seeing the same old claptrap of how there is a threat here, when I'm left wondering just how much reality there is in that statement and just how much this about pure prejudice. If you are going to say it, how about backing it up?

I have to say that transgendered people are as likely to feel vulnerable in sexed changing rooms as much as men or women might. And thats down to plain old fashioned ignorance.

I have little time for any feminist logic that consistently and repeatedly has an outright refusal to admit that sex is not binary, when all the evidence is that it is quite clearly not, and the whole thing is a social construct. Whilst at the same time harping on about gender being socially constructed and how bad that is.

The reason for the refusal to do this is because it damages the platform from which they argue. Its a pretty shameful oversimplification tbh for this reason. It damages the whole cause.

We DO have a need for safe spaces. But I seriously question just how much they really need to be purely on sex lines and whether we do need to reassess how these are provided. Everything from changing rooms to victim support. We desperately, need to start providing a lot more spaces that suit everyone, not just the conforming majority as this is an issue that effects a surprisingly bigger number of individuals than people might expect - not just those who are actively transgendered.

We need to look at how we can make places safe and reassure people using them that they are safe. Not simply going well they are safe because they are female only. And thereby suggesting in the process that ALL men are ALL a threat on the basis of biology (and is therefore somewhat dangerous in itself), which we have already established, has a habit of not really being consistent and matching our social definitions anyway.

Certain elements of feminism don't like that though, as it interfere too much their manifestos and world vision and with the social constructions they make doing so or want to make. Rather than looking at solutions that might be better for all, they are only interested in women, which is fine to a point, but if you neglect the rest of the world you just end up creating even more problems and inequality.

And thats where those parts of feminism all fall down as, inconveniently for them, men and women and all those inbetween actually do co-exist.

WhiteShores, (this could get circular) I didn't mean to suggest that you had suggested ... sorry for the confusion

HmmThinkingAboutIt

I would agree that sex is not binary, but nor is it a spectrum.

It is also thoroughly biological (has everything to do with physical structures, chemistry, and potential reproductive options), although biological sex also invokes a cultural response.

In the medical world, sex is based on genotype (essentially genetics), but generally it is physically obvious.

Sex is a selection of a few different and distinct combinations of X and Y chromosomes. XX = female, XY = male (and the rare variations, essentially X0, XXX, and XXY) = intersex.

Each of these groups has their own distinct physical features (as massively common to that particular grouping), and each grouping will occasionally have some variation. This is medically called phenotype.

A specific genotype expresses a specific type of phenotype in the vast majority of people. And where this occasionally does not happen, it is due to some part of the biology misfiring as it were (aka receptors not functioning and thus not being receptive to androgen = androgen insensitivity).

Sex = biological
Gender = psychological/social/cultural

Just to clarify the point about being binary but not spectrum =

A light switch is binary, it is either on or off.

Colours exist on a spectrum, a colour can be red, blue, or any degree of variation inbetween.

A line up of: an apple, a chair, a dog etc. is not a binary or a spectrum, but a selection of different things.

Argh typo - "point about being not binary, but also not spectrum."

I don't think the term safe space is meant to imply that it is keeping out people with criminal intentions.

Counsellors, support workers and so on use the term 'safe space' but they mean a space in which you can feel safe to express your thoughts in front of an individual or group you want to express them in front of. They don't mean that the purpose is to keep you safe from money laundering or something.

I don't see that anyone is suggesting that transgender people are more or less inclined to crime than anybody else. Why would they be?

Males are more likely to commit violent crime than women, far more likely, especially sexual crimes. That's the issue. Whatever their "gender identity".

Thank you kim for injecting some reality into this thread to counter the mythical sexually predatory, privilege waving, foot soldier of the patriarchy monster that's so often referred to in discussions like this.

Trans women are highly likely to experience sexual violence perpetrated by men for the same reasons that those identified as female from birth do - because our patriarchal society assigns less value and legitimises objectification and exploitation of people who are not identified as male.

Isn't that the problem that we should ALL be working together to smash, eh?

I wasn't aware that testosterone was the root cause of male violence against women.

live and let live ffs.

The root cause is men working to maintain their structural power. Male violence against women is a political action which they undertake in order to maintain their dominant position over women.

It's how all dominant groups oppress subordinate groups - violence is always the mechanism to achieve and then retain power.

Yes, exactly as I said above, so what's the deal then?

If that's addressed to me, I've just read what you wrote Kritiq, it's not exactly what you said above. Nothing like.

What deal are you talking about?

MTFs retain male privilege. We see this amply demonstrated in the way patriarchy and its supporters have fallen over themselves to hand over the category women to them.

Posting this separately, because who knows how Mumsnet decides what's "transphobia" and what is free speech - as it's not possible for men to become women they remain in the group which poses real threats of violence towards women.

Generally posts about MTF trans committing violence against women get deleted. Not sure why.

one example

camp trans organiser patrols women's festival with massive knife

Hi sorry not trying to derail the current discussion - but some people asked about FtoM. Just been reading about FtoM who regret transitioning, or who stop transitioning and return to living as females. some of the stories are very sad. But I wanted to post this as comments have been made on this thread basically that there is lots of hoops to jump through before people transition and that these individuals are all convinced that they are really a certain gender.

Sadly these stories show that that is not always true and that actually some of them talk about a pressure to transition because their behaviour was "masculine" or because they are lesbians and family members viewed it for them to be more acceptable to be FtoM than lesbians.

One of the links claims that 31% of transgender people who transition regret it and that this is evidenced in scientific journals. Sorry I have not had time to follow the links to check this out. But whether the figure is correct or not, some of the stories are pretty heart rendering.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/category/ftm-2/
peacefulqueen.tumblr.com/
detransition.blogspot.co.uk/

Just to add, all the links I have posted are from people who have either transitioned and regretted it or planned to transition and now are glad they didn't. So its not feminists like myself talking about Trans issues, but real individuals who are affected by this.

I'd just like to say that from my point of view, even if it were true that MtF were more likely to commit any type of crime (which I don't believe is true), then this would not be a valid reason to treat every individual from that group as a potential criminal.

Its a bit like people that point to statistics of black people in prison (who are over-represented there), and say that this proves black people are more violent and should be segregated. My husband is black and faces this kind of discrimination every day, even though he is the kindest/gentlest man I have ever met.

Its just not a good pathway to go down at all, and is really not fair to individuals (which is what all of us are in the end).

I also know that there is a significant number of biological females (almost always abuse/rape survivors) who do have a large amount of fear when it comes to biological males... but most of them are rational enough to understand that their fear is not the fault of innocent males. Just as someone who was once bitten by a dog may come to fear all dogs (even though the majority are lovely).

I would not say that this fear should be a justification for segregation but I do think it would be far kinder and empathetic of people in general to acknowledge that these biological females should have somewhere they can go (for recovery, counselling, etc.) where they are not confronted by the trigger for their fear (whilst they try to overcome their trauma).

I also think that when most people talk about 'safe' places, they do not literally mean safe as in free from danger, they mean safe as in a place they feel comfortable in a group of their choosing to talk about issues they would otherwise keep private (for example a group for pregnant women to discuss the experience - including all of its intimate and sometimes embarassing effects).

This tends to be the same use of the word 'safe' as counsellors use, and which somebody else pointed out upthread. And I also think that as innate biology is such a commonality for biological women (and very private/embarassing for some), that they should also not be criticised for wanting a 'space of their own'.

This is not to say that many groups (probably the majority) would not cater for both people who are biologically female and people who gender-identify as such.

I seriously don't get how anyone could ever argue that Trans Women retain male privilege. By the very act of transitioning, they are eschewing male privilege. They are seen by cis men as inexplicably denying the very thing that gives them worth as a human being - their manhood, their maleness, their masculinity. They serve as a threat to the cis man's sense of identity - i.e. a reminder that maleness and masculinity aren't necessarily immutable.

Why do you think trans women experience sexual violence, discrimination and oppression if it's not as a function of systemic misogyny? Are their oppressors not the same people who are the oppressors of those identified as female from birth?

Or, do you believe that trans women don't suffer sexual violence, discrimination and oppression, or maybe that it's not as bad as they make it out to be, or perhaps they provoke it, or are you insisting that your belief in their capability to be violent negates any complaints when they are victims of violence?

Minimising, denying, blaming. Where have I heard that before?

(reminds self not to engage in discussions on this issue here as reality rarely makes a visit.)