Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

Is that addressed to me Kritiq, it's not clear.

I don't think that the massive support for transwomen and the refusal to allow that other women may want to retain a separate identity in some situations is primarily motivated by wanting to support transwomen's level of male privilege, whatever that level of male privilege may or may not be.

People would support and give support to paper clips or circus clowns if it supported their own gender beliefs that they wanted to impose on the rest of society and women in particular.

If trans activism (which doesn't necessarily reflect what trans people think) was arguing for something that promoted the idea that many women don't have a gendered brain, wasn't based on some innate difference between male and female brains and so on, nowhere near as many people would support them.

I don't think patriarchy needs any support about its beliefs about the sexes. They're pretty entrenched and supported already.

This was about a tiny group of men imposing their own desires and needs on half the population and that half of the population being told to go fuck ourselves if we don't like it. Women can't even speak out against it now - I've even had posts here deleted for "transphobia".

What men have achieved through trans though is to have created another split in feminism between women who want to welcome and allow XY people into our spaces (as long as they claim to be women) and women who don't. They've also managed to create a state of affairs where rad fems get called bigots just because we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels. Feminism can't really afford to be split, but it is. Feminism also can't afford to be letting people with male privilege and power into our spaces and our political organising, but that is what is happening now - over and over again.

You only have to look at the big feminist blogs like Feministe or Feministing or the F-word in the UK to see how centred trans interests are, whilst women's are sidelined.

As I linked upthread - there are even feminists arguing that abortion isn't a women's issue any more. How could that happen?

Whether it needs more or support or not doesn't change the desire of many people to want to go around expressing their support for misogyny.

Most of this thread hasn't even been about people discussing what trans people feel or want. It has been about what psychological characteristics people insist women must feel. That suggests to me that most people's primary interest is in controlling women.

I don't know, Nyac, but I don't think it is primarily motivated by concerns for trans people. I would speculate that it is linked to ideas about sex positive feminism. The more people argue for performative sexuality and gender, the more they can sideline issues that apply to women in general and shift their focus on to the rights of a group of women who are performing something that a misogynistic society wants to see.

Who cares about the abortion rights of some drudge of a woman who already has 3 children and works long hours in a low status job when they could be focusing on the rights of some more hip woman to wear nipple tassles?

"What men have achieved through trans though is to have created another split in feminism between women who want to welcome and allow XY people into our spaces (as long as they claim to be women) and women who don't. They've also managed to create a state of affairs where rad fems get called bigots just because we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels. Feminism can't really afford to be split, but it is. Feminism also can't afford to be letting people with male privilege and power into our spaces and our political organising, but that is what is happening now - over and over again."

Why the fuck does feminism have to be about segregation? Why should feminism be preoccupied with what's in someone's pants, when a large part of the fight is about giving people the same rights as everyone else, no matter what is in their pants.

I have a friend who's lived her life as a woman since she was a teenager - facing the same problems and discrimination as any other woman (plus all the extra discrimination and ridicule she had to go through her transformation) - I've got no idea whether she had alignment surgery or not, I've never asked, because it's none of my bloody business. I really don't understand how you can claim to be fighting for women's rights when you so fiercely want to exclude women which are often very very vulnerable.

we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels

This is the problem.

You (and others) see them as "men". They see themselves as "women."

Round and round we go!

Kim, most MtoF don't pass. Usually people are too polite to say anything. I have met MtoF who think they pass and I can tell you they don't. Maybe from across the street or maybe even just looking at them they do; but as soon as you start to talk to them and hear a male voice trying to be female, or look at their face as you are talking to them, it becomes obvious they are a man.

Trans MtoF are at risk of men being violent to them and being abused because they don't pass. But they also have others treat them as men, even if it is at an unconscious level. So they get listened to more, taken more seriously, don't get sexually harassed, etc. Basically they get the privilege of not experiencing, or experiencing more rarely, the everyday sexism that all women experience.

And what about those few who genuinely pass. Even these individuals still have male privilege. Yes they experience everyday sexism. But they grew up with the privileges of boys and usually young men and have the self confidence and self esteem that many women have to fight to get.

And now you will say they can't be women (for all the reasons hitherto given), which aren't unfair...but ultimately none of it is going to provide a solution.

We need a way forward.

Where do FtoM transsexuals sit in this debate?

Surely they present a bigger problem for feminists, given that they want to give up their female identity and join the oppressors and patriarchy and benefit from the male privilege?

Hully - posters have changed their mind on this thread. If you find it circular, you don't have to read it

But they grew up with the privileges of boys and usually young men and have the self confidence and self esteem that many women have to fight to get

Um

You mean at around what? 10/12/14 they SUDDENLY felt themselves to be female? And hitherto had felt and enjhoyed being male....

Hardly. Mostly they have suffered since their earliest years with a strong sense of disconnect and not-belonging and have suffered through not fitting in with their gender stereotype.

Thanks Eats.

However, I'll do as I please.

FtoM yes want to benefit from male privilege and escape everyday sexism. I don't find it a "problem", just sad that people choose an individual solution to a society problem.

I posted a link upthread to FtM who had started transitioning or fully transitioned and regretted it. One who had partly transitioned and went back to living as a woman describes her anger at suddenly being treated in a sexist way again. She had passed as a man and had enjoyed escaping the everyday sexism for a while.

Of course Hully, it was just a suggestion

But surely feminism has failed these women if they feel the need to become men?

Hully - have you read stories of MtoF or talked to any? Some experience a difficult time because they are more "feminine" in their behaviour - although even then they won't have had the negative messages about girls/women aimed at them that females get in our society.

But your description simply does not apply to many MtoF transexuals. Many fit in in terms of "masculine" behaviour perfectly fine, some get married and have kids, etc. It is about how they feel internally. What you present is a stereotype picture of MtoF, the reality is much much more diverse

Society has failed these women. There are actually posts on some radical feminist blogs about how as feminist we could reach out to these young girls/women and say that you don't have to transition to deal with these problems, there are other solutions.

I do think individual feminist fail these women by silencing any objection or analysis of transexualism/transgender as transphobic

I would contend that feminism as a movement has failed these women.

But since we're unlikely to agree I'll bow out now.

Why do you think feminism has failed them? We may agree, you may be right. I do change my mind including on threads on the feminist boards

We don't create privilege in our heads. Society gives it to us based on the assumptions it makes about us. So yes a trans* boy would still be brought up with privilege. Alongside all the problem that they might also feel, sure. But a thought in their individual head does not create a force field around them that resists any societal influence.

I'm still not sure whether Kritiq's post was addressed to me, but I'd like to address her frankly bizarre assertion that stating that women are at risk from male violence (whatever package the male comes in) implies that trans don't suffer from violence.

Trans clearly suffer from violence at the hands of men, both because of misogyny (funny how joining the class of women, even if it's only perceived makes you a target), and homophobia (men police sex boundaries very fiercely). However the sad fact that trans face violence from men, in no way detracts from the fact that women are still at risk from male violence. It is actually possible for two things to be true at the same time.