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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Erin Pizzey's work with Refuges

292 replies

ParsleyTheLioness · 10/04/2012 08:40

Talking about this on the Relationships board. Does anyone remember this woman from the 60's/70's who set up an early(?) refuge? Are her work and writings still valid today, or discredited at all, anyone have any knowledge? I may not be spelling correctly.

OP posts:
Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:24

I've never told Sigmund to fuck off.

I don't understand HmmThinking's post. Why's he saying that?

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:29

I've reported it though, because I don't understand the Mumsnet rules on personal attacks, but I think if I'd said something like that about someone it would have been deleted.

AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 12:29

where is the "fuck off sigmund" post ?

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 12:30

i can't read hmm i'm afraid - i just hear a buzzing sound and see a mass of text and my brain freezes

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 12:32

You mean all the posts questioning why SF should be on the FWR board and how she is antifeminist and how you don't like it, isn't somehow saying "fuck off".

Hmm... yes. Ok.

Perhaps you'd like to actually get back on topic, rather than using all the labels to try and make people feel unwelcome or like they don't belong.

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 12:34

there it is again!!!

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 12:34

gonna get my ears tested!

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 12:35

HmmThnking there's a lot there in your post I'd like to address so I'll have to break it down.

we should be taking entire families into care
I don't altogether disagree with that. It's been my feeling that when it comes to DV often far too simplistic an approach is taken. For example, SS removing children when the mother is seen to 'fail to protect' the child by allowing the abuser back into the family home. However, I think this is because society fails to deal adequately with abusers and abuse is still minimalised and tolerated. If society really condemned abuse and cared for victims it would not give the mother any responsibility to keep the abuser away - he would be forcibly removed and kept away from her and she would be given protection and education/counselling to undo the cycle of dependence she finds herself in as a result of years of abuse.

as expectations and values of women have changed at the same time as allowing for easy divorces, the solution to problems in relationships (and I mean relationships in general rather than DV cases) is to walk away rather than to encourage resolving the problems between couples.
Marriage derives from the concept of women as property. The changing expectations and values of women that you refer to are simply women asking to be treated as humans, not property. It IS treating your wife as property and sub-human to, for example, expect sex on demand, to abdicate 70% of the mundane domestic tasks to your wife, her life to be changed irrevocably by having children while you still have a unhampered working life and continue to enjoy an active social life with the occasional 'babysitting' of your own children considered a good enough nod in the direction of equality. TBH if the family really is destroyed as a result of women expecting not to be raped and to expect equal help with children and domestic tasks, then the family is a shit institution. But it won't be feminists destroying it. It will be men who fail to accept that women are not sex toys and/or domestic slaves. Funnily enough, men who treat their wives with respect and pull their weight around the house are much less likely to get divorced and no one advocates 'leaving the bastard'.

Feminism perhaps fails in that respect at times as its aims are purely about women... in the process, intensionally or unintentionally, disengaging with half of society even in more 'soft' forms of feminist thinking.
THe female half of society have been ignored from time immemorial. Even now everything tends to deal with men with the effect on women occasionally discussed in a equality measures way. The budget and it's disproportional effect on society for example. All feminism is doing is redressing the balance. Even with all the feminist groups out there and all the lobbying going on, society remains male-dominated. Women are not seeking to ignore men or put them down, they are simply asking to be treated as of equal importance. That still isn't happening. Men can be easily involved in the equation if they ask how they can help and start doing it. But many don't.

Things like pointing out that a major trigger for suicide (amongst a number of other issues) in men is family breakdown need to be talked about more.
Again, men who are capable of looking after themselves and forming happy, functional and meaningful relationships with others rarely commit suicide when divorcing. If a man wants to commit suicide on divorce, he has mental health issues, in which case he has my sympathy and compassion but I fail to see how it is the woman's responsibility to fix that. Should she stay so he doesn't kill himself? What often happens however is that men are overwhelmed by the burden of practicalities that they hitherto left to their partners and cannot cope with it in addition to the emotional fallout of the marriage. Yet again another reason why we should be encouraging men to partake far more equally in family life, doing their fair share of housework and childcare. Which would also reduce the divorce rate and null and void the problem in the first place.

As does DV against men, if children are in the equation, as even if it isn't serious as if as Pizzey observed, it is creating a 'non-normal childhood environment'. If DV is a cycle then what happens to those children as adults?
Again another reason for removing the abuser - of whatever gender - and providing the victim - of whatever gender - with help to unlearn the cycle of abuse.

I do know far too many men who are victims but never would say or do anything about it as its a taboo subject.
The figure for male victims has been extrapolated and the figures inflated to accommodate. As it should be since yes DV is massively under-reported and there is more social stigma attached for male victims. Even so, it is still dwarfed by the number of female victims. And it fails to take into account that a man can leave an abusive relationship and re-enter a world where the odds are in his favour simply by virtue of being a man, whereas a woman finds the opposite.

Which is why I do think it is important to talk about the victim, and why she keeps going back to him, and why that might be 'her fault' rather than her partners - because of the life experiences she might have had previously that have fuck all to do with the person currently beating the shit out of her. The 'her fault' bit, is deeply complex and not really her fault, but it definitely should be being explored and discussed better than simply putting it in terms of black and white.
The point is that if abusers stopped abusing, the victim would not have to do anything. She would not have to stay away from an abuser because there wouldn't be an abuser to stay away from. That's why we need more emphasis on what we do with abusers rather than what we expect victims to do. Until we start making it clear that abuse is unacceptable, victims will always be in a situation where the focus is on their behaviour and nothing will change. Ironically, in the few cases where an abuser is sentenced, the CJD often targets the money at the abuser instead of the victim - sending them on perpetrator programmes (that have little success BTW) instead of punishment or restorative justice, while the victim usually has to leave the family home, gets no counselling unless she can pay for it, and now can't even apply to the social fund to help her start over.

Men's and women's rights are tied to each other and can not be separated.
I agree, but thus far many male rights have been achieved at the expense of women's and feminism is trying to redress the balance. Until that happens, there isn't a level playing field for co-operation. Men can join in the resetting of the balance by supporting feminism though. But it seems few actually want to do that.

DV is very often a result of people being unable to communicate by any other means.
No it isn't. In some cases DV is borne of anger and frustration. These sorts of perpetrators are the types that end up in trouble with the system in other ways as well - e.g. the thugs that start fights in town centres after a few beers and then go home and beat up their GFs. But most perpetrators don't have any trouble communicating or controlling their frustrations with other people. They simply feel entitled to use violence as a means of controlling their partners. Abuse is not about anger, it is about entitlement and control.

I think we are increasingly losing the ability as a society to communicate with each other without it becoming a conflict situation as we live apart in various ways. It is the very core of what we should be doing and encouraging. We are all connected.
I agree 100%. Which is why I want women to be reconnected to society at a level where they can affect what happens politically, economically and socially. But the number of women in these positions are very small indeed. Women are not alienating men; they are trying to get heard and facing a great deal of opposition in the process.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:38

Perhaps you should stop trying to direct the thread Hmmm. :)

It's not unreasonable to ask someone why they are spending so much time on a feminism board if they really do think that feminism is going to destroy the family.

I didn't direct her anywhere else, after all anybody and everybody can post here, but I don't think it's actually horrible to think that if someone has such an antipathy towards feminism and feminists (see the coven remark) that perhaps they'd be more comfortable in the company of similar people. There's nothing stopping Mumsnet having a Gone Too Far forum. They've catered to a lot of other member requests.

That's not telling someone to fuck off, so please withdraw your claim that that's what I said to Sigmund.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 12:39

I've read the whole thread and failed to see Nyac telling SF to 'fuck off.' You could possibly say that's implied by Nyac's posts dismissing SF's argument, but then what are SF's posts if they're not a big 'fuck you' to feminism by coming on a board about women's rights and saying feminism will never be popular because feminists want to destroy the family and women are violent abusers too? That argument doesn't wash.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 12:40

BTW Nyac - I don't think you implied anything. I think you rightly called offensive posts for what they were.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:41

It's the sort of mud they like to make stick.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:43

Yes sunshine, I'm a bit shocked that anybody would demand a warm reception from feminists for someone who is saying that feminism will destroy the family, making digs about mind control, soap boxes etc, and who calls feminists who disagree with her "a coven".

Yet Hmmmm is taking it upon himself to admonish me.

Once again, Hmmm, please not that this all started because I said that Wendy McElroy wasn't a feminist, and Sigmund appeared to take massive offense at that.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 12:46

I will withdraw the claim if you respect others right to be here, even if you don't like them, Nyac. And cease to continually have a go at people who you don't feel have a right because their agenda clashes with yours. Deal with what they say, rather than attacking them with well versed media techniques to silence. That goes for the other sending to coventry remarks by saf too. Deal with the topic.

On that note, sunshine thank you for showing me courtesy and respecting my views even if you disagree. Its incredibly frustrating to have to deal with all the politics of communication rather than actually talking about things. Its welcome. I respect people more for doing that, even if I don't share points of view.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 12:49

For the record Nyac, why are you referring to me as a man? The natural assumption I have for everyone on MN is that everyone is a woman unless they state otherwise. I find it most curious.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:50

My ears are buzzing too now SAF. What do you think that's about? It must be catching.

ecclesvet · 12/04/2012 13:01

Ah, the 'pretending you can't hear them' method of discussion. Very mature!

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 13:08

'My ears are buzzing too now SAF. What do you think that's about?'

Maybe the thought of thinking outside the box is affecting your ears?

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 13:12

Excellent post at 12:35, sunshine.

Hmmm, why should we have to deal with those who genuinely dislike feminism, thus derailing any attempts at discourse on issues? Seriously. The number of times I've seen topics about rape, domestic violence, femicide etc derailed by those who "dislike" feminism is disturbing. If these people hate it so much, why are they so adamant that they must come and derail our topics about serious subjects?

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:12

"Maybe the thought of thinking outside the box is affecting your ears?"

Another dig! You're spoiling me too much Sigmund. :)

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:15

Are we all agreed now though that Erin Pizzey isn't a feminist given that she wrote an article that was entitled:

"Why I loathe feminism and believe it will ultimately destroy the family"

This is one of the things that gets me - Pizzey says stuff like that about feminism, yet it's feminists who are berated for not having any time for her or voicing our own criticisms of her. Pizzey can say what she likes about feminists and feminism, but woe betide anybody who dares to state their views on her behaviour or opinions.

SandyMumsnet · 12/04/2012 13:20

Hello there,

We have had quite a few reports about this thread today. We've taken a look and would like to remind you of our Guidelines.

Can we refer you back to the OP.

Thanks very much.

Sandy
MNHQ

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 13:24

Erin Pizzey used to write a lot for Cosmopolitan in the 80s, and I used to find her stuff a fairly equal mixture of interesting and fucking annoying even then. So much of what she wrote seemed to be coming from the massive chip on her shoulder and the belief that everyone else was the enemy.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:26

Cosmo in the 80s used to be great. Thankfully I have erased the memory of Pizzey. I liked Irma Kurtz. :) And Paula Yates used to write for them too.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 13:27

Because women's rights are essentially different from the aims of feminism. You can dislike forms of feminism but still be very concerned about women's rights and problems that disproportionally affect women. Without labelling them as purely as women's issues. I think that it is important to be inclusive in these issues rather than exclusive in doing so. If you are one of those who believe in the patriarchy conspiracy then it breaks the old way of thinking - it makes things gender neutral (Of course if you don't believe in the patriarchy then you are just dealing with the issue).

Its certainly not about derailing anyone's topics. Its about seeing it from another point of view. You refer to it is 'our' topics. But their are not your topics. They are everyone's topics. Just like to point that out.

If you want a good discussion then a broader range of views is better, then everyone sitting there nodding and agreeing with each other. Where we do have common ground - we need to focus on what that is, as where the census lies is where you are going to be able to get the most change done. If you spend all your time looking at the differences, you will have a negative view but you also won't make progress.