Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Erin Pizzey's work with Refuges

292 replies

ParsleyTheLioness · 10/04/2012 08:40

Talking about this on the Relationships board. Does anyone remember this woman from the 60's/70's who set up an early(?) refuge? Are her work and writings still valid today, or discredited at all, anyone have any knowledge? I may not be spelling correctly.

OP posts:
SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 10:51

'Peddling the myth that feminists want to see the eradication of the family is also deeply offensive'

Can't believe you're actually saying this, when there is feminist blog after blog stating that exact thing. Why are you pretending otherwise?

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 10:57

Disagreement is fine. I rather like it. What I expect to see if you want it discussed though is evidence to support that POV or I won't take the argument any more seriously that someone suggesting that humanity derived from unicorns at the bottom of the garden (though that's a non-offensive flight of fancy at least).

Feminists are normally the ones saying the controversial and tend to provide lots of evidence for why they say what they say because they expect to be disagreed with.

I wouldn't go on to the SN and suggest that ADHD is simply a result of bad parenting without having some substantial evidence to back up something so potentially offensive - and of course if I looked into it I would realise there isn't any evidence to back up that offensive claim so I wouldn't make it.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 11:00

SF because feminism is a diverse branch and only a small proportion want to see separatism.

Others want to see the eradication of the idea of the nuclear family as 'supreme', which is absolutely not the same thing as saying they want the eradication of the family. I'd rather say it's about extending the definition of family and recognising that all sorts of family set-ups work.

I think the traditional nuclear family is incredibly harmful in many many cases and that many alternative set-ups often work much better, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go round demanding that happily married couples dissolve their union when their own set up works for them.

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 11:37

My blog's only got bits of feminist stuff on it from time to time but it's here for whoever wanted the link.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 11:40

So Sigmund can talk about me exerting mind control, standing on a soapbox or stating that I think that a feminist is anybody who believes with me, but none of that gets deleted, but anything I say in response does.

I guess this will be deleted too.

I remember 4 thousand post threads that in good part were attacks on me which Mumsnet did nothing about. Yet shit like this is allowed to stand.

Why?

Nyac · 12/04/2012 11:41

I didn't post personal attacks I commented on Sigmund's behaviour.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 11:43

The reason people are pissed of with you Sigmund, is that you hold clearly anti-feminist views e.g. feminism is going to destroy the family, but instead of being open about them, you've kept them hidden up until now.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 11:44

Erin Pizzey did make excellent points about the family and how perhaps we shouldn't be taking kids into care, and instead we should be taking entire families into care as she observed that the cycle of violence was such that a lot of the women she dealt with had come from families where DV was rife and had never experienced anything different, so had reactions and expectations which were not normal. And in turn any children exposed to that would also end up getting sucked up into the same thing, especially since the care system didn't provide a normal environment too.

Incredibly badly phrased, worded and emphasised at times. And equally misquoted, taken out of context and used by others to further their agendas - often at Pizzey's expense.

With regard to feminism destroying the family, I do think there is an argument to be had here. Not because feminists themselves are responsible but because as expectations and values of women have changed at the same time as allowing for easy divorces, the solution to problems in relationships (and I mean relationships in general rather than DV cases) is to walk away rather than to encourage resolving the problems between couples. I do think that this is highlighted by the sheer number of kneejerk 'leave the bastard' responses you get on MN. I do think we need to, as a society which includes men in the picture, be trying to encourage communication and resolution of conflict (again, I'm not just referring to DV situations here).

Feminism perhaps fails in that respect at times as its aims are purely about women. I don't think its just about 'a minority who want separation' being a problem. Its also about the use of language and the labelling of something being a Women's Issue and in the process, intensionally or unintentionally, disengaging with half of society even in more 'soft' forms of feminist thinking.

Hence why I do feel increasingly like it doesn't hold enough for me and I favour a more egalitarian approach - which includes women's rights (and why I feel I have as much right here as any feminist). Break up of families most definitely should be being treated as a non gender issue imho. Women have the roughest time of it on balance but I think just talking about that isn't good. Things like pointing out that a major trigger for suicide (amongst a number of other issues) in men is family breakdown need to be talked about more.

As does DV against men, if children are in the equation, as even if it isn't serious as if as Pizzey observed, it is creating a 'non-normal childhood environment'. If DV is a cycle then what happens to those children as adults? I do know far too many men who are victims but never would say or do anything about it as its a taboo subject. Insisting DV is a woman's issue and is much more serious against women is just perpetuating the situation if it is cyclic. Which is why I do think it is important to talk about the victim, and why she keeps going back to him, and why that might be 'her fault' rather than her partners - because of the life experiences she might have had previously that have fuck all to do with the person currently beating the shit out of her. The 'her fault' bit, is deeply complex and not really her fault, but it definitely should be being explored and discussed better than simply putting it in terms of black and white. Hence why I do take issue with the whole 'victim blaming' thing. I actually think its a hinderance too. You have to walk a fine line between victim blaming and getting a wider understanding of how to help. In short, it does need to be talked about, and yeah difficult questions need to be asked in that process. (And yeah I appreciate I've probably badly phrased that too, but its a sentiment difficult to express without upsetting and very easy to misquote).

This is why I take issue with the refusal of a lot of people on the FWR boards to talk about Mens rights. Men's and women's rights are tied to each other and can not be separated. Yes there are a bunch of MRA nutters some of whom, frankly should be locked up, but there are issues that feminism needs to address in there too. Just as much as the MR groups have a whole pile of issues that need to be addressed. I personally feel, that both sides of the coin, are doing everyone a massive disservice in the way that they are not learning to communicate better and are actively encouraging "The Enemy' mentality. Its funny, as actually they have a hell of a lot of common ground and thats what they should be focusing on. DV is very often a result of people being unable to communicate by any other means. The irony between the conflict between MRAs and Fems isn't lost on me for that reason.

I think we are increasingly losing the ability as a society to communicate with each other without it becoming a conflict situation as we live apart in various ways. It is the very core of what we should be doing and encouraging. We are all connected.

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 11:47

My behaviour? Sociologist are you?

InAnyOtherSoil · 12/04/2012 11:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 11:48

Sigmund is deliberately poking people on other threads too, right now

it's an approach, I suppose, not one that's at all useful or gains you any respect whatsoever, but I guess if it's the only way you can operate who are we to criticise ?

Nyac · 12/04/2012 11:50

She seems to be able to say what she wants with impunity. Must be nice to be in that position.

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 11:51

the thing is no matter how long these people play cloak and dagger sooner or later they're going to have to do the reveal aren't they? there's nothing much gained by these games. what do they gain???? do they think they're 'winning hearts and minds' or something?

AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 11:52

sigmund gained a couple of followers once, IIRC

Nyac · 12/04/2012 11:54

The other reason that people are pissed off with you Sigmund, is that you keep making snide digs, e.g. to me about mind control, soap boxes etc.

That's got nothing to do with differences of views or opinions, it's just a nasty way for you to behave in a discussion.

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 12:04

Why are you wasting your valuable time having snide digs at my perceived failings as a human?

'Sigmund is deliberately poking people on other threads too, right now'

A thread, not other threads m'dear. A slight poke at you, not 'people', if that's the way you want to view it. And I'm not the only one, you missed that bit out, as always. Also missed out your own 'pokes' too.

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 12:07

Nyac. A fair few people are pissed off with you, which you conveniently choose to disregard.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:08

Sigmund we're commenting on your behaviour here, nothing to do with you as a human.

I disagreed with you about Wendy McElroy being a feminist, and that prompted you to start talking to me about mind control, soap boxes and how I only think people who agree with me are feminists.

Why couldn't you just stick to the topic which was McElroy at that point. It would have saved at least a bit of this bother?

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:10

On this thread? I'm talking about on this thread.

You seem to be pissed off with me, which I'm assuming is what all those digs are about. I asked what your problem with me was earlier, but you didn't answer.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 12:11

"I'm really going to leave you to your coven now"

There you go again. Implying that women who are disagreeing with you are witches which is deeply misogynistic.

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 12:15

coven

nice one.

misogyny in action.

InAnyOtherSoil · 12/04/2012 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 12:21

swallowedAfly Thu 12-Apr-12 11:51:18
the thing is no matter how long these people play cloak and dagger sooner or later they're going to have to do the reveal aren't they? there's nothing much gained by these games. what do they gain???? do they think they're 'winning hearts and minds' or something?

WTF is that supposed to mean???? Reveal what? That they don't agree with you?

The amount of association fallacy, ad hominem, ad nauseam, black-and-white fallacy, demonizing the enemy, labeling, oversimplification, stereotyping propaganda techniques that are going on in this section are frankly outrageous. It does little to get to the bottom of problems and does everything about 'winning an argument'.

That needs to be highlighted, whether people like or not.

In my experience, the truth is rarely what one or other person at each end of the spectrum say. It is almost always in the middle. Nor should we loose sight of the idea that the victor writes history. The truth isn't always what you think it is and what you are told. You should always question and keep questioning. People cling to the ideas that fit best with their experiences and their truth, and don't tend to do that. It does not mean other truths do not exist. We should be willing to listen to those other truths at all times.

People get fed up with other people. I'm sure that you are aware Nyac, that you also piss off a lot of people. Does that mean you should leave the FWR section too? That you should be silenced?

I don't really give a toss, if you don't like SF. I'm sure you don't really give a toss if X,Y or Z person doesn't like you either Nyac. But you shouldn't be telling her to fuck off. Especially given the fact you, yourself feel at times like you are being victimised.

FWIW You both belong in the context of making this forum better.

InAnyOtherSoil · 12/04/2012 12:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.