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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Erin Pizzey's work with Refuges

292 replies

ParsleyTheLioness · 10/04/2012 08:40

Talking about this on the Relationships board. Does anyone remember this woman from the 60's/70's who set up an early(?) refuge? Are her work and writings still valid today, or discredited at all, anyone have any knowledge? I may not be spelling correctly.

OP posts:
solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 13:29

Hmm: what on earth do you mean about women's rights being different from feminism? Femisim is about women obtaining full human rights - the right to autonomy, independence, freedom of movement, freedom of association, equal pay for equal work, etc.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 13:30

What do you think are the aims of feminism HmmThinking?

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:36

Bloody hell. Is that the latest tack? To try and pretend that the fight for Women's Rights isn't the same as feminism. Sigmund also said something similar upthread.

Feminism invented the concept of women's rights, for goodness sake. It's the movement, the only movement, that fights for them.

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 13:39

What do you consider the aims of feminism, Hmmm?

Also, how do you think discrediting a woman's right to leave a relationship counts towards women's rights?

How do you think victim blaming helps women's rights?

How do you think minimising domestic abuse and rape helps women's rights?

How do you think refocusing the lens on the smaller number of male victims helps women's rights?

This is the bull I'm on about. I'm actually sick to the back teeth of seeing it, and not just from trolls, but from women as well.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:44

Here is one of the very first Feminist texts by Mary Wollstonecraft, which lays out the idea of women's rights for the first time:

A vindication of the rights of woman

AbigailAdams · 12/04/2012 13:47

Irma Kurtz. She was great. Had forgotten all about her. Thanks Nyac.

MooncupGoddess · 12/04/2012 13:48

It's true that 'rights' has a distinctive legal meaning, whereas feminism is concerned with a much wider set of issues, including the cultural attitudes that allow men to treat women like shit.

Quite often I see people saying 'well of course women should have equal rights in law, but feminism Goes Too Far'. This is progress of a kind, since 40 years ago these same type of people would have been adamantly opposed to the Equal Pay Act, etc, but it is still rather a weak position that demonstrates an unwillingness to engage with the issues at hand.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:49

Women's rights are specifically feminist though. To try and separate them out from feminism is just plain odd. Straw-grasping really.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 14:02

I think the aims of feminism differ depending on who you talk to. For some its about liberation from the oppression of men. For others its just about equality, but with the focus on women raising to the position of men.

For me I don't think either really works completely, as if you aren't taking on board the converse effects of the changes in society that feminism brings in achieving those goals then you simply create other problems for human rights. You are still putting people into little boxes and giving them labels than you then associate with certain things and I do feel thats part of the very heart of the problem. I want to be a human. Not a woman with more rights if that makes sense. I appreciate the difference is probably very subtule, and a lot of people won't get where I am coming from with this, but its important to me and as part of my identity as a person. I want the freedom to just be as I am, not for people to still make judgments about me based on my gender and I don't feel that feminism necessarily frees me from that.

I certainly have a number of issue with the radfeminism school of thought that I've seen on here. I find it far from radical and indeed very conservative in nature. My political line of thought is libertarian in nature, so the idea of banning x, y and z for whatever reason doesn't sit well with me. I generally believe you have to make change by consensus and social acceptance rather than law. Some of the views with regard to religion and trans-genderism I've seen on here have rather disturbed me. As a society we want to judge people and we can't cope when people don't fit the boxes. I think thats a far more radical way of thinking than the one I feel I am being offered by various types of feminism I've seen particular ones discussed on MN.

I do agree we are all trying to work for the list of human rights sgb just put, but I do think the danger we are now in, is having got so far further progress is much harder and the emphasis needs to be on benefits for society as a whole rather than simply benefits for women. Or indeed any other group within society that is in someway more marginalised.

FWIW, given what I've just posted and what Nyac posted upthread, I'd best point out that I am female and I have always been female. It says rather more about her that she placed an assumption about me being male on this thread. Thats the type of thing I don't like. Assumptions and being expected to somehow fit in with others ways of thinking and then being wrongly labelled when you somehow don't fit the box. I've never fitted any box, and I probably never will.

Probably doesn't make any sense to anyone else, but I do think its a very personal thing for me and I've posted before about how my experiences are probably somewhat different to others. We are all products of our own experiences and we all hold different truths. They are of no less value. I just wish that we would stop imposing generalisations on each other to the degree we do. That kind of goes across the board on everything for me. I tend to create a first impression of myself which is very different from the real me, so I do get particularly frustrated by stereotypes.

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 14:22

OK, this stuff about feminism 'going too far' - what that means is that feminism is about women having full, equal human rights. The problem is that this means men have to give up some privilege. Because when we are all equal, men won't be able to take more of the available resources, won't be able to expect women to defer to them just because a woman lacks a penis, won't feel entitled to have a woman service them just because she's a woman... It will mean fewer top jobs for men, because more of them will be held by women.
Now no one likes to give up privilege, but, basically, tough shit. Because it will happen. It is happening, slowly but steadily. ANd it will go on happening.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 14:25

I thought someone else had called you male Hmmm so that's what you were. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

We'd hope that would happen SGB, but women's rights are currently being eroded.

BasilFoulEggs · 12/04/2012 14:58

hmm there is no group more marginalised than w omen. take any marginalized group and you will find that the women in that group are more marginalised than the men in that group

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 15:47

TrophyEyes
People's experiences colour how they think. It depends entirely on the angle you come at things from. In answer to what you said, I'll post my personal POV in an attempt to try and explain the angle I come from.

How do you think victim blaming helps women's rights?
I explained about how I felt about victim blaming as a tag. I find it unconstructive at times. If there are common patterns, they need to be looked at and explored without blame placed anywhere as controversial as that may be. I do feel that blame all round in certain situations doesn't necessarily resolve things. I think there is a certain element to DV where abusers are themselves victims or have been victims. If the focus is on pinning blame rather than taking a wider social responsibility and finding out why something is happening and continues to happen, you have lost sight of what the real issue is.

I've mentioned before about how the IRA bombing my town in the early nineties has had a profound effect on my life. My 'hero' as such is a guy called Colin Parry, for his work in bridging communities between the UK and NI. Instead of looking at the blame for who was responsible for his son's murder, which would be so understandable, he looked at the problems underlying it all and how you broke the cycle.

Its made me try and look at other sides to things, even unpleasant ones. Because sometimes you have to, to make things better. Uncomfortable truths need to be heard.

How do you think minimising domestic abuse and rape helps women's rights?
Minimising domestic abuse doesn't help anyones rights as far as I am concerned. You can leave the women part out of it.

How do you think refocusing the lens on the smaller number of male victims helps women's rights?
Because the issue is about violence in society in general. The issue isn't just about women's rights to me. I stopped going to a certain town for a night out, because it has a reputation for violence, which to me seemed based on a certain amount of substance. The violence wasn't just male on male drunkenness but also women glassing other women. I think its part of a wider issue about how violence happens and why is acceptable in society. And where it originates from.

BasilFoulEggs, I think we are marginalised not just because of others but because of ourselves too, now. I think by clinging to the idea of the patriarchy we are often giving ourselves a good excuse not to succeed.

I look at the context of wider society in 2012, and there is a very wide disenchantment with the establishment and unfair distribution of power. Its shared by men and women. Social mobility has decreased for everyone in the last two decades, and thats massively important and shouldn't be ignored in the context of everything else. White working class men are turning to the BNP as 'job are going to immigrants' but there is evidence to suggest the problem also has been caused by stereotyping accompanied by a lack of traditional opportunities which has also effected work ethics and confidence, and it is creating a vicious cycle. How do you break that? I think it also has important lessons for how you approach any further erosion of male roles in society and how that might cause conflict, tension and resentment. Men shouldn't just be 'sucking it up'. There also needs to be a real effort to prove that hard work across the board reaps rewards. If the erosion of privilege isn't at the expense of those at the top, but only further down the chain and doesn't allow working class men and women to also be part of the advancement, you are saving up a whole bunch of new problems there. We have the foresight to see this is a potential problem so we should be doing things to reassure men, and to show that any changes to society have benefit to it as a whole. (And now I sound like a raving socialist which I am not!).

I do feel women are somewhat guilty of the same thing to a degree, with regard to blame. I think a lot of women don't feel able to achieve for whatever reason, and have a lack of self confidence which feeds the system. I do think its a hangover, which is distorting the problem and we have more opportunity than we realise and more doors are open to us than we perhaps think. The perception is very negative ad there is an underlying attitude that you are not the master of your own destiny. I think there is too much of a negative attitude that we can't achieve, which leads to less women trying in the first place, which is down to us, rather than the men around us.

I certainly did find it very interesting the range of reactions I got when deciding to go around the world alone. My male friends thought it was great. They were really supportive. My female friends questioned it or said they wouldn't do it. My plan was for westernised countries only, with exception of thailand which was my last stop (and I ended up missing it out in the end anyway). When I was travelling, the guys never batted an eyelid about me being a lone female, and they tended to travel alone. It was the girls who were in pairs and did everything together. I could understand the lack of support and fair questioning if I had been going somewhere more exotic, but it was very 'safe'.

I honestly think that self-confidence and the importance it has can't be underestimated. I wish I had a lot more of it.

gah.... essay... sorry.

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 16:19

it's not an 'accident' that women have problems with self confidence.

ciba? idtic.

LineRunner · 12/04/2012 16:36

HmmmThinkingAboutIt, I just been reading this thread and I can't help but wonder why it matters to you that we believe that you are a woman, given your arguments about being seen as a person and not a label.

BasilFoulEggs · 12/04/2012 16:57

hmm your arguments just sound like the usual non-feminist ones to me - it's not sexism or patriarchy that stops us achieving equality,it's our own psychology. how convenient, that means there's no need to change society then, women have just got to change their attitude.

that's one analysis, but it's not a feminist one.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 17:01

How would you propose we stop DV Hmm?

I think the uncomfortable truth is that the only way to stop DV is to get men to stop doing it. The comfortable truth has always been to say that if women didn't provoke it or put up with it there wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure society is becoming more violent. Compare to the middle ages for example. There's possibly been an increase in personal violence and a decrease in group violence in the west. But while I don't condone women glassing other women (interesting you refer to a specific form of violence for women whereas men just have 'drunkenness') women are only behaving in ways that men have always done (and they are still doing it in far fewer numbers). The reaction this provokes is telling. Why is it more shocking when women behave violently? The reaction to women being violent is the right one because violence is unacceptable. What is sad is how normalised and excused male violence is.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 17:54

It matters in the sense, that I've often felt that men in this section are treated in a different fashion to women on this forum. And not in a good way. It has be used as a way to discredit what the person says. A man can not properly understand women's issues as he holds patriarchal privilege.

Therefore in the context of that particularly post I felt it was important to state I am a woman. And also that I am not transgender. Again, given the expression of some views I've seen stated on that particular subject too.

I find the use of the word "men" is being used too often negatively in sweeping statements, in the context of being derogitory; particularly in the form of the word "menz".

There are good men. There are bad men. Much the same way as there are good women and bad women.

Where appropriate, I would prefer the use of more specific terms such as abuser or bigot, rather than the generalised saying "men are like this" or this patriarchal crap which lumps all men together. But I'm not going to get that given the strength of feeling about it, and I don't expect it. Bit of an ask to expect people to do that... I'm not about to go round pushing that idea here.

I've also seen numerous comments and sentiments about the idea of this being a 'safe space' for women to discuss ideas on a female dominated forum and not being somewhere for "MRA Propaganda to be spread" though it hasn't happened. There, rightly or wrongly, does seem to be a siege mentality, coming from a few people and a suspicion that somehow some men are deliberately trolling by starting threads to provoke a certain response.

All in all, I think it affects thinking and responses in a way I don't like. I do want to be treated as a person first rather than a woman; I was actually considering letting it slide and not correcting it, but in the end I felt it important in the context of the post it was in and it would be somewhat disingenuous not to do under the circumstances and nature of this section.

Ironically, I'll admit to having deliberately used male user names in past before for precisely the same reason on other forums, as it does affect reactions to what you say, from some quarters, both male and female. There are people who don't react differently with the knowledge of your gender and they are the ones I ultimately respect more. I've always owned up to it in the end, and again the response has been interesting. It has changed a few opinions for the better - I've had a couple of people admit they made huge assumptions and would try and treat people as people and points of view, not just genders. Its also, made a couple of guys admit, they would have flirted with me otherwise and they wouldn't haven't considered otherwise that this might have made me feel uncomfortable, had I not done it. They just didn't know. Got a couple of good online friends out of it.

I wish I felt differently, and I didn't need to do it on that post, but it is the way I perceive the FWR boards. Not welcoming, and slightly bigoted by a generalised association fallacy regarding men.

HTH

BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm a bit of a maverick at the best of times. I tend to find I don't think like other people and I find that a bit hard at times to try and express certain views in a way that doesn't make me come across as too much of a mentalist or a hypocrite. I hope that I can get at least some of whats in my head to people and why I think the way I do, even if you don't agree with what I say. I think trying to convey, why I think what I think and the logic behind it is as important as what I say, if I don't get that right or it comes across a bit badly. I genuinely, want to get people thinking and to think about why others think differently, rather than necessarily 'convert' others to my way of thinking.

God I'm on a ramble-a-thon today. I do sincerely apologise.

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 17:57

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AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 18:10

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TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 18:12

Right, re my post which you replied to; I added the "women's" part to the rights, because that's what... ohhh, I've given up keeping track... someone (either you or SF) said you supported as opposed to feminism.

the rest was too long winded and rambly for me to make sense of.

HTH

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 18:18

What is sad is how normalised and excused male violence is.

Absoluetly how I feel about it. Violence is normalised. We expect fights to break out on a Friday night or after a football match. But I think its extends to women too. And there has been a rise in incidences of women committing violent crime, if someone cares to look it up.

Incidently about the male drunkeness, I know at least two guys who stopped going out for the same reason. One after receiving a baseball bat to his head and ending up in hospital for several weeks. Unprovoked.

How do you stop DV? I think there is a hell of a lot of unprovoked DV on women. I don't want to take that away, but I don't think that covers it all and I don't want to apply a blanket solution to the issue of DV. That for me is the danger in saying that its men who mostly do it and women are mostly the victims. In a great many situations women ARE the victims. But not all. Thats why I don't like the genderisation of it. There are cases where it is male on female, female on female, female on male, male on male, and indeed completely mutual. There is more than one type of DV. There is more than one route to it. DV encompasses a lot of different forms and causes, and thats why I don't like discussions about DV for don't take that into account because they are too generalised and stereotyped.

I do think there are stages of escalation within a relationship which are identifiable and which eventually leads to violence. For starters, greater awareness and how to avoid conflict situations in general for both genders would be a great way to go. Teach it at school and how to recognise warning signs and how to defuse tense situations. It could help down the pub situations as much as DV. Teach basic communication skills better on the whole. Its being hugely neglected.

Tackling violence and conflict as a whole and making it more of an issue early on in life, to the same degree as teaching kids about sex. But within that, I do feel you need to be careful about applying gender stereotypes which ultimately could harm both genders in some way.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 18:21

So you ask a question. So I take the time and answer. And you don't like the way I do.

Brilliant.

Equally self important. And also rude.

If you can't be bothered to read, just don't. No one is making you. No need to be rude about it too though.

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 18:23

No, I tried. I just couldn't hold every single opinion you were getting in there in long enough to construct an answer.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 18:26

Why make the drunk comment then?

Unnecessary. You are just deliberately being rude.

Just ignore it and move on, if you can't be arsed. Not hard. Instead you want to just want to be nasty...