Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

I'm not bashing Xenia as a person. I just don't agree with what she represents, and all the insults she's been dishing to everybody that doesn't do as she does.

In fact, all this rant about equality when I can become a fancy corporate lawyer, buy my holiday island in Panama, and get a lot of UK companies and investment funds to register their business there and avoid UK tax, Cameron senior style. I could be making a fortune. Get the best nannies in the country, send all my children to private schools. And then boast about my achievements and IQ to the poor mortals on mumsnet who are constantly beating each other up about their decisions.

I was wondering in my OP if I was naive. I think I've just got the answer.

Whoever is the main breadwinner / stay at home parent doesnt matter but sacrifices do have to be made during the early years of your children?s lives and it?s an idea to decide in advance which of you will be primarily devoted to caring for the children and which will go out to bring home the pennies.

My husband has a highly paid job but for the privilege, he?s expected to show up for work every day and be available at short notice for site visits and meetings etc. He?s out 14hrs a day most days and comes home knackered but I don?t bitch at him about it because he works his arse off to keep us in a nice house with things we?d otherwise have to go without. When he does come home he dives straight into chilling with the three of us, helping the kids with homework and generally spending the last few hours of his day winding down.

I?m a nurse so when the kids were little I worked nights and passed him on my way in through the door at 7am as he was leaving. Yes it was utterly tedious at times and I got cheesed off but despite being knackered, I had the benefit of working part time whilst also being at home with my children during the day. If they were ill or schools were closed for holidays, I didn?t have the worry of arranging for childcare and paying a fortune for it.

I got to see every school play, sports day, went along on some school trips, and was always there before and after school or when they were sat in reception waiting for someone to collect them because they were unwell.

Now our kids are teenagers and because we didn?t take each other for granted or get all uppity over a list of chores etc, we?re still best friends, actually enjoy each other?s company and aren?t tied to shift work and eternal tiredness anymore.

There?s never been any rule about whose job it is to put tea on or wash up etc. Whoever gets in first has the time or doesn?t mind making a start by peeling some spuds just does it and the other always says polite thanks when we get in.

I?m on with the rest of my studies and have been promoted in the last couple of years because I can commit to the hours and the nature of the job now the kids are older.

Plus, I enjoyed them when they were little and spent rainy days going on long wellie walks and rescuing snails from the roadsides and pavements. When we got home I got to drink hot chocolate and bake cookies and make dens out of old sheets. It was ace. :o

I?d hate to think of them spending their early years doing all that with someone else because I was too busy being precious about equal rights and whose turn it was to take out the bins.

Parenting is a team effort. Doesn?t matter how you work it or who does what as long as you crack on and plough through it.

Whoopdidoo. Well done. Glad you had a good time. Your way is not the only way, though.

Exactly my feelings and experience Parly. We were a team effort - not a competition.
When our DDs were little DH got up at the crack of dawn and left the house at 6.30am to drive to London.TheDCs were still asleep and he brought me a cup of tea in bed and I generally dozed off again. He got back at around 7pm if the traffic was OK -in time to read them a quick story,they were ready for bed. We then ate and he was ready for bed by 9.30pm, shattered. It is hardly a life! Had I had the sort of job Xenia thinks I ought to aspire to I would have had to do similar and a nanny would be the only option. If not we would have had to move to London and have 2 high salaries just to afford a house + the fact we would probably need school fees. As a partnership what was the point? Much better to live on one salary,without a nanny and with excellent state comprehensive and primary schools. Why swap roles when DH was prepared to do it and I was the one who loved 'long walks in wellies' just to keep people like Xenia happy by not 'letting the side down'? They are young for such a short time - I can pick it up later. It isn't as if I want a Xenia type career anyway.
If I stayed in teaching I would want to be a SENCO in a school big enough not to have a class in addition. Other than that
A child psychologist , speech therapist , archivist or genealogist- all very interesting to me but are not going to earn enough to buy an island.

Plenty of working couples both work full time without a woman taking second place on a lower or no wage. I have not said what I do and I certainly do not advise on tax havens although as a capitalist and free market person I have no problem at all with people organising their affairs lawfully to reduce the tgax they pay - such tax avoidance will be done by most of the couples on mumsnet even if they only make a contribution to a pension, wicked immoral tax dodgers that they are. Shame on them.

At a personal level, its obviously something for couples to sort out between them and as long as they are both equally happy, there are many different solutions that work at a personal level.

However it is an issue for feminists if we have far more sahm than sahd, because that's not equality.

Xenias 'we need women in power' is necessary if we want morequality.

Exotic - you agree with Xenia on one thing, which is that to afford a good standard of living (nice house, good schools) you have to have at least one partner working hours that preclude much parenting in the week and an unbroken career path.

There are two ways for women to 'win' in that situation - one is the Xenia model of 2 weeks maternity leave etc...live centrally, pay school fees. The other is the Traditional housewife model - stay at home/work PT, live in the suburbs with a commuter husband.

I know this is the status quo, but it doesn't mean it can't be challenged. I don't see how most women or men can really win in that situation - assuming that both would like to carry on their career, spend more than the minimum hours with their kids, perhaps take a year or two off or a few years PT without giving up all chances of advancement.

As you say, your chosen career options wouldn't buy an island. Actually they wouldn't even support the basic house-in-the-suburbs
model. Girls are still encouraged to aspire to and train for careers that could not possibly support the lifestyle they seek. So you end up with mens-jobs that require a 14 hour day (and assume a wife at home to make it work) and womens-jobs that are more flexible (but assume a husband covering most of the family living expenses to make them work).

Himalya - i agee with a lot of what you say but i dont think most 'mens jobs' actually required 14 hours per day.

i think a standard setup is more like one of my friends:

1. his job is seen as more important within the family (9am to 6pm)
2. she works part time and does everything in the house
3. he thinks he is a 'good dad' because he plays with the children when he wants to.
4. she works far longer total hours.

Individual men do what they want to do at that moment in time, most of them
Individual women do what they want to do at that moment in time, most of them
Individual people do what makes them happiest most of the time.
SAHM are some of the happiest people on the planet.
TBH, the vast majority of the others look remarkably unhappy, and stressed and on pills.

I think that you have to do what suits you as a couple. If I was my DH I would have insisted on travelling less than 10 miles to work,earned less money and had me working too-which is completely fair and I would have done it. Luckily he was prepared to do it. He was equally earning my money. If I had dropped dead he would have had to give up his job, you can't see young children who have lost their mother for 30mins a day,if they happen to still be awake,and weekend.
There is nothing wrong with my choice of careers,they all need a degree and they would all keep me.
Your friend is an example of not suiting all-Wasabi and I can't see why she puts up with it.
As a team we work to fuel our life, we do not have a lifestyle to fuel our careers. There is nothing wrong with either if it suits you. We have a corporate lawyer in the family, it is her life. She loves it. We are all different.

I agree exotic - but i think that it is a myth that most SAHM are there supporting their high earning DP because he couldnt possibly help around the home more.

many women end up doing more work and thankless work.

The central question is why do they let them? DH might not have got home until 7pm but he still washed up, he wan't living in a hotel or with a housekeeper!

lack of self worth, a belief that thats what men/women do. i think many women dont believe they can achieve change so focus on coping with the status quo.

which is why women in powerful roles IMO is part (only part) of the solution. and teaching girls to have aspirations (of the broadest sense).

Sometimes the anger suggested by some ladies on here is astounding.

A SAHM should not be patronised by Scottish or Xenia et al for choosing to stay at home raising their children. For what it's worth Xenia your oppressive brand of capitalist feminism is not attractive to many women. Face up to that fact and stop trying to belittle others to justify to yourself the choices you have made.

Champion the rights of those women who yearn for the boardroom. But in doing so please do desist from pouring scorn on those humble types who GASP want to stay at home with their children.

Oh do me a favour! If we want to compare who gets to have lovely times with their children.....

Yesterday was a typical Sunday. Up at 7am and then breakfast as a family (as we do every morning) then washed the kids had a play then out to Church. Lovely skippy time on the way. We then had coffee and biscuits with the other parents while the 3yo run around with her Sunday School friends and I cuddledd the baby. Back home we played in the playroom together as a family during which I nipped out to the kitchen to make a roast. I can see them all the time so they are not abandoned! The baby had a nap so dd and I baked cookies. When baby was up he had a breastfeed while she had milk and then the cookies we had baked. Dh and baby then played while dd and I did our usual Arts and Crafts Sunday afternoon activity. This time we were making and decorating 2 birthday cards. While she decorated the cards at the kitchen table I made a pie for supper. After supper we had lovely skippy times having bath time. Both kids are obsessed with the bubble machine and we sing nursery rhymes while we bath them. After getting dressed, we do story time where they get 3 stories each and dh and I take turns to read. Lots of cuddles, breastfeed for dC2 and then sleep. They both like to wake up in the night so lots of time with them then as well. Lovely.

Today, dh is out at work. Ds is teething so he has been snuggled up with lots of breastfeeding and sleeping. It meant dh and dd had breakfast alone. Then dd was abandoned with the nanny to play, then have a wash. I am just getting ready while our nanny gives ds breakfast then we take the kids out swimming. I do the mummy and baby class with ds but after almost 3years, dd has just graduated from that class to go in on her own. We will come back and have lunch together and then I will disappear into my office to work. Reappearing to breastfeed ds and then again to have supper with them. Dh will get home in time for the storytime.

The next three days I will be out of the house between 9am and 6.30pm. We will still have breakfast though and I will still get back for stories (they don't go to bed till 8pm) so I spend about 3 hours a day with them on those days. Let's not forget the night times too. Dd is at pre-school for half mornings while ds does activities with the nanny. But both with the nanny doing lovely things like going to the park in the afternoon.

My Fridays looklike my Mondays and Saturdays are a bit like Sundays.

Now you may think I don't spend enough time with my dcs. I personally think I have lovely times just like all the other "mummies" as quite frankly every mother does. The bits where the dcs don't see me? Well I am a senior person in the City and am in the top 0.1% of earners in the country. It doesn't preclude the lovely times with the dcs though .

Do they, and will they think they have had enough time with you?
I have seen clingy children for this reason.

amillion - do you consider yourself a feminist?

It's always woman as whipping boy isn'tit because housewives and indeed many men are very very sexist. We never say to the husband of noveice or amilion years "will they have had enough time with you." Why do housewives assume that children need someone related by blood to be caring from them 24/7? I've never understood that. They areh appy their husbands subcontract out childcare to the wife (but not a nanny). They are happy to subcontract out childcare to nursery schools at 3 and full time school at 5b but have some little sexist opinion that unless mother is there at home or possibly daddy then the child is somehow not getting needs met. It's the biggest lie peddled and it keeps women chained to kitchens and arguably damages children too.

I hvae nothing to prove as I've mostly got grown children and am very happy but it does trouble me as a feminist that the press so frequently talk about all women wanting some nirvana of hours of cleaning and childcare when plenty of us don't. Many of us like novice and like I am enjoy all those nice times with children (and gosh I've worked for myself for years so although sometimes I'm abroad on business etc I am here more than a lot of people so I'm not exactly an example of an absent parent anyway) and work fulltime as I'm sure the husbands of amilion and others who of course because they are male would never be subject to criticism for not being home, the penis being their protection against all such critcism.

FWIW, my DH works local, we are self employed,and available for all intents and purposes both available 24 /7.. I realise I am a extremely fortunate lady. Thats what I mean by I sooo realise it is not like that for other people. I am unique, Xenia is unique, we are all unique!

WasabiTillyMinto, what is a feminist? Because feminists cant agree what a feminist is.

someone who wants equality between men and women and thinks we dont have it yet.

Well we certainly dont have it yet, Id have to think a lot more about the first bit.

This thread will have the patriarchy rubbing its hands in glee. There is nothing patriarchy likes better than women attacking each other and blaming each other for their own oppression.

Fact is, patriarchy doesn't give a shit about you whether you are a SAHM or a WOHM. You are still a member of the sex class, you are still a member of the reproductive class.

Women all make deals with patriarchy - the thing to attack is not the woman or her deal, it is the system and social order within which those deals have to be made.

I'm a bit weirded out by the lack of basic feminist analysis from so many self-identified feminists on this thread.

you'd have to think more about whether you want equality? think we can take that as a no then.

there is so much emotive propaganda in what you write - and a lot of sly digs and attempts at guilt inducing.

i've seen clingy children too - they have been children of sahms and wohms. and as for sahms being some of the happiest people on the planet and all the others being miserable and on pills!?! ridiculous.

the stay at home years are really hard going on a lot of women and many struggle with their mental health and feeling totally subsumed into parental responsibility, less financial freedom, less identity enriching stuff and general bleurgh. obviously a lot of working mum's struggle too and in different ways. let's not get all idyllic wonderland about either ffs. for most women having young children is hard work and a challenging stage of their life (albeit great also in retrospect ).

and i do think that the people who talk in super positive terms about the early years alone with pre schoolers are mostly looking back rather than actually IN that stage - and there's a fair bit of rose tinting going on.

equality between men and women means what exactly.If you find the right man, compromise and negotiate with him,both feel happy, work as a team, bingo!