Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

Beachcomber -

i find patriarchy talk like this bemusing, as if it is something separate from what we are talking about.

How can Patriarchy rub its hands in glee (what hands?) how can it like something or give a shit about something we say on a web forum (with what brain?).

I think what people are talking about here IS part of the social order - the deals and decisions men and women make with each other - as partners, as co-workers, as bosses and employees, and then the way they bring up their children and the expectations they encourage them to have about careers, finances, relationships and gender roles.

That is what they system and the social order is made out of (plus rules and institutions)....

amillion equality between men and women means what exactly

noone is treated less favourably because of their sex.

I've been following this thread with interest and (occasionally but increasingly) with horror.

No one ever asks my DH how he balances work and family.

No one ever asks my DH if he feels he sees enough of our toddler.

No one ever asks my DH if him working might be the cause of [insert toddlery behavioural problem here].

And do you know what? No woman has ever, even insinuated that last to me, either. All the mothers I know who work outside the home, and all the mothers I know who work in the home, all think the other one has probably got a rather good deal for her but probably not the best one for for themselves. Most women support each other and understand that everyone is doing the best they can in a sucky situation, because everyone has to cut some kind of deal with a sexist society.

Everyone makes bargains with the patriarchy. It's how we survive. That bargain might be putting makeup on for an interview even though you think it's absurd that you should have to be thought conventionally attractive to land a job in engineering, or it might be taking full maternity leave when you'd rather be back at work a bit sooner, or it might be barely taking any maternity leave because you can't afford to step off the treadmill of your career or you'll lose your house/health insurance/ car repayment/other thing that you and your child need to survive. Judging each other for the bargains we make conveniently diverts our energies away from the fact that we shouldn't have to make those bargains.

The fact is, capitalism makes it very hard for families to survive on one person's income (considering the average income, obviously there are a few higher earners). The fact is, women are blamed for working outside the home and blamed for not working outside the home. The fact is, no one says or does this shit to men. The fact is, this must stop!

there's a bigger world than just the home amillionyears - and some people are single or gay and still have to deal with gender inequality. so i think it goes a bit broader than 'finding a nice man'.

WasabiTillyMinto, are feminists interested in mens rights as well?I am confused by that posting.

it depends what you mean by men's rights?

i see equality as benefitting everyone.

It's a really interesting question. When my wife and i were together our hope and intention was to work towards a shared working/caring roles where we would both work part time and both look after our children.

However, this has all gone to pot since we split up. My stbx has basically assumed complete control over our daughter. I find very very few feminists or indeed just females fighting for 'equality' when it comes to relationship breakdown...they tend to support the system that supports the idea of a 'primary carer'. Which entirely goes against what the OP was wanting which is shared parenting.

As someone who is stuck with very few options and choices around how much i work and can spend time with my daughter i would love to see feminists campaigning for change to the system so that parents of split families are treated the same and equal.

I'm just sick and tired of always women having to bargain with the patriarchy. I honestly want the patriarchy to bargain with us.

That's why I want ALL men to take childcare seriously and don't make any assumptions that it will be the mother/woman/wife the one who's going to make sacrifices/put more effort/energy/hours - whatever you want to call it -for the care of small children.

Maybe then we'll hear men attacking each other for not doing enough childcare or for doing too much. They will have more choice, like we do, and they will be criticised and put relentlessly on the spot for not making the right choice.

I don't mind bargaining. I just want the bargain to be both ways.

tomwm: You're right. It has to be 50/50, in marriage and in divorce. No assumptions about primary carers. We're both primary carers equally. That's why I think a more flexible gender approach to childcare will benefit not only women but definitely men.

glad you see it that way marga73. Its interesting then that you seem to assume that if only 'ALL men' would change their views then everything would be ok. Perhpas 'ALL women' should stop attacking each other and labelling this and that and instead focus on campaigning for equal rights when it comes to separated families. Alas, this is not a very sexy campaign to be a part of and sadly i think women would get lambasted (mostly by other women) for doing so...for still being under the thumb of the 'patriarchy'.

The reason why women don't fight for equal rights for separated families so fiercely is that there has to be equal rights in place before a family separates. One would be the natural result of the other.

If a father took six months or more of paternity leave, because there is legislation in place that allows him to do so, then works flexible hours and spends a lot of time with his children, it would be natural that that father has a good/winning case for living with that child after the family breaks up.

The problem with society at the moment is that it is normally the woman who does the above, so when the family splits up, she wins the case because she's seen a more "fit for the job". The father seems to occupy the position of the "weekend figure", and that idea is hard to get rid of even after the family has changed the way it functions.

You need to take one step at a time. We're talking of very deep structural changes. It will not happen overnight.

tom - so did you do 50% of the childcare/housework during your relationship?

feminists are generally for the system we have for separated families whereby the status quo is maintained. so if you did 50% of all childcare and made sacrifices in your career to be able to be at home providing care for your children and taking care of the housework etc then yes this should continue and that would be the courts view of it if you go to court. how exactly has she supposedly taken over? against your will? what is to stop you negotiating this as adults? if you're saying she is refusing to cooperate then take legal steps.

tom, I do. I have always argued that enhanced maternity rights are anti feminist and hurt women and so it has proved. If the woman gets 6 months on full pay not 6 weeks then you can be pretty sure muggins mummy will be saddled with being pushed into more chldcare than the man. I also lobby for male rights on divorce. True feminists of course want equality for both and that of course is a right to do the child's washing and clear up its sick and not just turning up for a few hours at the weekend if you've nothing better on.

Obviously on the divorce issue you reap what you sow. If you set up a system with woman as primary carer then you find that occurs on divorce. I didn't - we both worked full time. A good few mothers who work and have fathers at home find after divorce the children stay with the father althoug most families work out a balance without courts intervening. We also must not forget that across much of the planet and in most of UK history women automatically lost their chidlren on divorce. I think Sharia law says with mother to age 7 and after that to the father, the property of the father. English law was much the same until about 100 years ago.

On blackc's good post I would say it's of huge benefit in the progrses of women that it is hard to bring up a family on one income. It takes those women kicking and screaming into the workplace and out of subservience at home and that's a jolly good thing for them even if they hate it. It is for their own good.

Bollocks to equality. I don?t want the hassle of changing a flat tyre on the hard shoulder during a biblical downpour, assembling toys and furniture on Christmas Day or catching god-awful spiders.

Plus, we wouldn?t get away with pretending to be all pathetic and ?terribly sorry officer!? when we get stopped.

Himalaya it is a figure of speech . A metaphor - one that is quite common to feminist analysis.

It means whilst women attack the choices other women make, in order to live their lives as best they can, in a sexist society, we aren't attacking patriarchy.

Nor are we analysing how to move forward so that better options are available for all women. We are standing still tearing pieces out of each other. It is the discursive equivalent of slagging off the women who are featured in the Daily Mail's misogynistic articles.

It makes me deeply uncomfortable when women do it.

WasabiTillyMinto: No i worked full time, at the time....but it was something we both wanted to work towards. But these things take time to work out dont they.

right so complete misnomer there then tom.

Beachcomber -

But we are not in agreement about what the problem is here.

I think we can all agree that partnerships were one partner pushes the other around, calls all the shots, doesn't pull their weight etc...are a bad thing.

But beyond that, in mutually respectful, loving, happy, fully negotiated relationships, the fact is that women tend to take on more childcare and domestic responsibilities and therefore take a penalty in terms of working and earning and achieving influence in public life

So the question is that situation ok and why, and what to do about it.

Just saying the patriarchy as an entity somehow disembodied from the attitudes and decisions of million men and women, is laughing at us doesn't resolve these questions.

The patriarchy/society is made up of billions of men and women, and changing the way it works means understanding and challenging attitudes and decisions somehow. which means sometimes disagreeing. I don't see how you can get around this.

Actually I think that all the recent studies show that women who work are happier than women who stay at home. And happiest of all are the women who work part-time. one example www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2073532/Working-mothers-HAPPIER-stay-home-mums-study-reveals.html

millionyears depression,mh issues,most prevalent amongst housewifes
working women statistically have better mental health and score better on self report measures

im am bemused you think you can tel workers who lookremarkably unhappy, and stressed and are on pills

in fact,most mental health is adequately managed in community and you generally cant tell mh issues by looking alone

best outcomes for those who work part time. yep that sounds logical - people who have balance. mental health does actually have ingredients - some of those ingredients are really hard to source for sahms hence having more mental health problems.

my ideal would be to have two sources of income - my own private clients bringing in good money in a small amount of hours and a part time academic position. still having time to myself on my own in the day sometimes, still being around to hang out with my son before school and pick him up from school most days. so that's what i'm aiming for. it means i have to have high level qualifications in order to earn fairly good, or good enough, money in relatively few hours.

would that make me unambitious and letting women down? or is it ok because i'm single so i'm definitely not doing it for a man or ironing anyone's shirts?

It sounds like a good life to me SAF. I would like something similar.
The way I judge it, is not about whether you iron anyone's shirts or not, but whether your want/have a lifestyle which you couldn't possibly support yourself or interchangeably with a partner for those who do.

So if you want an island and work like Xenia fair enough. Or if you want a more low key life and a more low key job also fair enough.

The problem is for me that so many women get stuck in a lifestyle that doesn't match up with their ambitions/qualifications. And no one ever says to them at school 'that job doesn't pay well', in fact they are encouraged to act like they are not material in their ambitions, the assumption is that girls only need starter jobs/ jobs for mums anyway, with the unspoken idea that someone else will be paying - whether it is a husband or through housing subsidies and benefits.

It sounds great to me,swallowed a fly, the best of both worlds but apparently you are letting the side down.
I don't think that you can generalise. I got fed up with it when I was a single parent and we were all lumped in together. It seems to be doing it now,as if all women will feel the same and that ALL working women will ................. We are individuals. My mental health was fine, even when a single parent at home with a baby. Probably it is an advantage of being an older parent- I had got where I wanted and was quite happy to put my DCs as my priority, I knew that I wasn't missing anything-I had been there and done it. Had I only worked for 5years then I may have felt differently.

himalaya i don't know if you're of an older generation to me but i certainly never saw that in school either as a pupil or as a teacher.