Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

yes i agree
ive read threads that childbirth is female domain until men pushed in and medicalised it and stole the wonderment from the goddesses apparently

Exotic - why do you assume that in a family with two working parents the mother is the one with responsibility for employing a nanny and having odd ideas about whether or not a man can do the job?.....

I still think that this is more about work ethic than housework. There seems to be an obsession on MN that we should all be working 40 hour weeks from the day we leave education until we drop dead.

I worked for 17 years, full time before I had children. I didn't swan around India for 5 years finding myself, I worked my way through university and got my first mortgage the age of 21. I also worked part time from the age of 12. I've had 13 years 'off', looking after my kids (one of whom is disabled not that that makes any difference at all), while doing voluntary work, retraining etc.

Why are some women on here trying to tell me that I've made the wrong decisions and that if my children grow up they will somehow have a notion that women only exist to pick up other peoples socks and that if they do it will be my fault?

Equality in the home? Who wants it? We just want to get the jobs done. It's a family not a debating chamber.

Yes, I'm very new to the site. I'm trying to get familiar with various acronyms and people here in order to understand their views.

Xenia, thanks for clarifying. I do think you're unusual in being able to succeed in such a tough environment as the filed of law, and I admire people who genuinely succeed in their careers regardless of their sex and background.

However, my issue with you is that because you are in that "privileged bracket of society", compared to the rest of us mortals, you seem to insult and underestimate everybody who doesn't earn as much as you do, by implying they either have a very low IQ or are lazy. I don't think that applies to real people, and I think it's a very ruthless way to view humanity in those terms.

My children are looked after and taught by teachers, teaching assistants, and nursery staff the days that I work. It would never occurred to me to think of them in terms of IQ. I value what they do tremendously. I am grateful and I wish they could earn a lot more because they do a very difficult and important job. I could never have the gut to imply that they should be my servants or earn less than me because I have more academic qualifications than they do. I simply think they're where they are because of a combination of factors, a lot of them with being women, being raised in a very patriarchal capitalist system that doesn't allow them many choices, especially if they have children themselves, and they don't come from a "comfortable background".

I work in translation, and I have done my speciality in legal translation. I've worked mainly through translation agencies and believe me, it's a very tough job and it's very badly paid for the amount of work that you do, and the intellectual intensity it requires. So your theory, high IQ, lots of money, definitely doesn't apply to my profession.

On the other hand, you might have a dodgy second hand car dealer making lots of money, using a lot less of his brain and more of his powers of persuasion or his cunning tactics. The world is not so black and white and you seem to present it.

I don't think people at the top of the social ladder (whether men or women) are in any moral position to judge people in the lower rungs so harshly. How do you know these people you look down on so fiercely have a lower IQ's? What if doing IQ tests on all of them showed that their IQ is equal or higher than yours? Would you then think there's something unfair about the world you live? Or would you continue validating your view that you are where you are because you really deserve it?

For somebody that claims such high IQ, your system of beliefs and values seem to me quite unsophisticated and unpolished. And I can only hope that women like you don't get to any positions of power because it would very misleading. It would make us all think that the battle for women's rights and equality has been won whereas there's still plenty of work to do ahead of us. Women like Thatcher, Palin and to a great extent Hillary Clinton, don't do any good for the cause of feminism. They're just in power because they play the game of those in power, they don't really challenge it, and they are only in power to support, defend and justify the very patriarchal power structure that put them where they are.

interesting is expecting women to do good for feminism or by other women
thatcher was woman,but my gosh I abhorr her values and simply because she is female doesn't mean there will be an affinity or shared set of values. or a propensity to do right thing

I don't think there is a sisterhood or affinity
I think we are shaped experientially,by class,and by education. and that imo means we are more shaped by these factors than gender alone.

Exotic - why do you assume that in a family with two working parents the mother is the one with responsibility for employing a nanny and having odd ideas about whether or not a man can do the job?.....

That is the second time I have been asked why I said women- I said it because we are talking about women's attitudes. My point was that women think men should do child care and yet I doubt they would employ a male nanny for their baby. I wasn't discussing who finds the nanny. I expect you would have the same problem anyway if DH said 'don't worry,I have employed a nanny'! You seem to be damned if you do and damned if you don't. Surely a nanny is a joint decision? I still don't think-however 'untraditional' and equal the woman- that the majority will go back to work leaving their baby with a male nanny.

An excellent post marga73.

Thanks, exotic :)

I also agree with jifnotcif. I was much older than average when I had my DC s so I had got as far as I wanted to and had years of work. It was lovely to have a break on concentrate on things that really matter. I went back to work but to suit me. I set myself other challenges and continue to do so. They don't involve staying in full time employment in the same thing until I retire. It will be the norm. The job for life has gone and people chop and change and have a change of direction. My eldest DS has had 2 changes of direction since leaving university. DH has had several complete changes. I have had a change from teaching.

You've absolutely no foundation for that observation - exotic

Most nannies are female. There is a question mark over why this should be, but the same is true of nurses.

I have employed a male au-pair. He was the best au-pair we ever had. Both the nannies we employed were female, but no males applied. I would have no issue over employing a male nanny and I'd be surprised if anyone had, tbh.

Jifnotcif: I want equality at home, at work, everywhere.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia, would you be asking the same? Equality, who wants it?

I particularly liked your last paragraph Marga. Xenia could do so much good for women if she didn't spout such tosh in between the real gems.

IMO Marga you're unnecessarily personal and harsh to Xenia just because you don't like her pov doesn't mean you should hope she doesn't have influence or sway over others

I read MN Hopefully and I can assure you they you are not the norm! All men are dangerous-according to a sizeable number.

I'm not comfortable with the Xenia-bashing on this thread

Seems a bit well, either co-ordinated or mental or both (Viz 'We have got it wrong about her") Just what exactly is going on?

She would have much more sway and influence if she didn't write rubbish about Roman slaves and Victorians. However I quite like the fact that she doesn't argue in a logical manner but gets goaded into silly statements-in the same way that I do!

the all menz are rapists/oppressor/etc are vociferous vocal minority
it's not universally shared view thankfully

I can only assume that you haven't been reading MN posts for long if you think the average poster would employ a male nanny,Hopefullyrecovering!!!

Just the six or so years. Not many MNers employ nannies. Mind you I've never seen an anti-male nanny comment on MN. Not that I hang out on the nannying threads nowadays.

There is a thread at the mo (by a man I think) about their job in a mixed care home, when there should always be a female working, according to the rules, but nothing to say there should be a male present. To me this say the expectation is that WOMEN are fine to care for anyone, male, female, babies, etc. But a MAN has to be chaperoned whilst carrying out the same tasks....because?

Just read anything about men and small DCs-there is paranoia! If they don't want a Male nursery worker taking a 3 year old girl to the toilet in a busy building they sure don't want one doing it alone at home!

This thread just gets more and more bizarre (including the stalker like posts).

I have said it before on mumsnet and I will say it again. There is always a very annoying assumption that a high earning woman must hardly spend any time with her children because something has to give and that something is quality time with her children. I don't disagree that something has to give, but from my perspective that something is sleep and proper me-time. The more senior you are in your career then the better placed you are to define the terms on which you work and how you work, and make things work for you rather than the other way around. Professionally, I am at the top of my career because I think outside the box, am exceptionally well organised, high energy and make quick decisions. I don't accept defeat easily (No is never an acceptable option) and I am not a bullshit person either so tell it as it. I use these qualities in ensuring that my kids are center of everything I do and that guides a lot of the decisions that I make at work that impact my kids. They go from the very big (do I take on a new rule) to the mundane ones such as what flight I catch back from an overseas day trip because I need to be back in time for story time. Every mother I know prioritises their dcs, whether they earn £20k, £100k or £500k yet the assumption seems to be that those who ean £500k care less than those who earn £20k. It infuriates and saddens me that no one applies these same standards to men.

no one opines of working dad why did he have kids..
but women are subjected to harsh judgement and assumptions when they work. stereotyped as avaricious and missing all the widdle precious moments
this is rarely extended to the father

scottishmummy entirely true, and so is the reverse - SAHD gets heaps of kudos, Dad who shares household duties gets loads of kudos. Mother doing the same gets flak.

A woman will get attacked whatever she does

I agree with you both. There will never be true equality while it is still the norm for women to attack each others lifestyle choices. Also, while these double standards exist, we will never see equal numbers of male to females at the top of professions/board rooms etc etc.