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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

999 replies

marga73 · 06/04/2012 22:55

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

OP posts:
amillionyears · 22/04/2012 18:04

I know you dont make things up.But maybe because you type so fast you dont realise you mislead. I can find you several things you have said which are misleading.Not sure I can be bothered but if it makes you happier I might.
Maybe you can see that some things you say are offensive. And for legal reasons you are conditioned not to openly do anything about it.
Please say sorry in private to your family if you do anything wrong, and please do not try and compete with them.Your family are a team with you and if you have any health issues in later life, you are surely going to need them.
I dont think I have much more to say at the moment, which I am sure will be a relief to some.

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 18:04

People could do their bit and have a male nanny-they exist,
It appears to me that women should start where it matters. DH first-why on earth run around after him? Start when you first meet him. Secondly make sure that you are a good role model to all your DCs and get them doing tasks early on. Thirdly employ a male nanny-if you can.

I think that women are their own worst enemies judging by posts on here. They treat DH like a third DC. They don't leave him with the baby and just go out. They make the self 'expert' parent when they both started from the same place. They don't let DCs do things in the house because 'it takes away childhood' or they will cut themselves,scald themselves etc.
They put up with comments like 'why haven't you hoovered' without hitting him over the head with it!!!

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 18:08

The other thing that irks me is that if you do get a male nursery worker you get posts from people not wanting him to do part of the job-e.g taking a 3 year old girl to the toilet. Have any thread about Scout leaders and someone will make insinuations.Is it any wonder that men steer clear of traditional women's jobs? And it is women who do it.

Xenia · 22/04/2012 18:15

I agree with exf. Don't tolerate sexism even for a day and bring up your daughters not to and sons for that matter. Don't let there be any assumptions about who does what at home and don't infantalise men at home. If they do things with children different from you accept it might be better. Be happy to share tasks. Don't se eyourself as mother God, the only competent one at home. Have more to your life than your competence with nappies or in the kitchen. Don't let the home be the only power you have such that you exericse it by in a sense excluding a man from the domestic sphere.

amillion, not quite following you... I don't think I have ever mislead anyone an dyou cannot produce any examples.You seemed to be saying I had said I was still or had recenlty breastfed but I certainly haven't said that. I breastfed all the children to at least a year but obviously not recently as they youngest are 13. I am not suer what the saying sorry to my family if I do something wrong is about. The types of relationships I have with them is a very inclusive open relationship in which anyone who does something wrong apologises. Also compete with them? Unusually because I had one at 22 etc I will have 20 yeras of working life whilst the older ones have working life too. I see that as a good not a bad nor a competition. I have 5 very different children and want them to enjoy their lives and make full use of their talents but if one wanted to live in a monastery or tend the land or whatever that's fine. I don't have a one set path for them all.

scottishmummy · 22/04/2012 18:20

the threads about male nursery nursery oh weird comments
this simply perpetrates the stereotypical role that children = womens work and men are
1.incompetent,wont be good as female.
2.not to be trusted and this will be proven by someone asserting men are potential rapists and statistically more likely to assault children.cue a link to alarming statistics. totally missing point that some men do these things. not all men. a minority of men

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 18:22

With you for once Xenia! Reading MN women seem to like to be in control in the home and can' t go out without issuing instructions! I left me DH for a week with 2under 5's. I didn't have to tell him a thing- he knew how it all worked!
DS now lives with his girlfriend -they split it between them. He sees it as normal.

amillionyears · 22/04/2012 18:24

I dont understand some of your wording.What is a inclusive open relationship?
And do you apologise to them?Not sure by what is written.You compete with the outside world all the time,it is very easy to take that indoors, such as telling them you are brainier, like putting them down, {i think you understand that phrase}.I'm glad you are listening and maybe seeing, even though you cant say it.
To others, I did ask twice if she wanted to pm. She didnt.She'd rather the public arena.
That may be all for now to you Xenia.

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 18:24

Sorry split the household tasks.

WidowWadman · 22/04/2012 18:29

I've always been under the assumption that the male nursery workers share the same duties, including toilets and nappies as their female colleagues. I never asked what my nursery's policy is, but frankly, it didn't occurr to me to ask.

WasabiTillyMinto · 22/04/2012 18:48

they are. DP used to manage an early years unit (3-6y.o.)

Himalaya · 22/04/2012 18:50

exotic - I don't think Xenia's way is for everyone, but I do think she makes people think. Just read back wrote about her, and tell me if you would have said the same about all the working dads you know.

" he loves her DCs, but didnt do much childcare between the times of 8am and 6pm when they were younger. ...he she
is blessed with is great health, good looks and energy to work late. In short, he is a fairly normal middle class professional she is a fairly exceptional woman.
.... She is unique. there are hundreds like him on the 7am train every morning
Actually their are quite a few like her on the train too, maybe not island owners, but it is not that unique and shocking for the mother to be the higher earner.

Himalaya · 22/04/2012 18:51

There there there - not their, for shame!

scottishmummy · 22/04/2012 18:59

ime the precious moments quips and why have children if you let strangers raise them have all come from women.

no one has ever looked askance and asked my dp, why do you work

why is it considered a given that childcare must be mum, and one must forgo career when you have children. it doesnt have to be like that

but for as long as women are housewife's and not demonstrating work,and participating outwith home there will always be an inequality. as it reinforces childcare and domesticity as female domain

swallowedAfly · 22/04/2012 19:04

amillionyears you're coming across as a bit weird and stalky towards xenia - think it's bad form to out details of someone's private life or insinuate you could do so. might just be me but it has made uncomfortable reading.

WasabiTillyMinto · 22/04/2012 19:05

why do men rarely demand equality in childcare, if they are missing out on 'these precious moments'?

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:14

I don't know why it is assumed that women will do the child care- I know couples where they swap or share. I did it because I loved it and luckily this fitted in with DH and what he wanted to do.
I think that we are really talking to the wrong people. This thread is just kept going by the same few people. I was under the assumption that male nursery workers did all duties,which they do, but there was a long thread on here by people who were not happy. It does have to work both ways, my DS used to babysit when he was in 6th form, I know from on here that many women wouldn't have had him, you can discount the ones who won't leave them with anyone , but there are a significant number who would have a 18 year old girl but not an 18year old boy-even when they know him well. Call me cynical, but I think that my 17yr old DS would have stood a better chance of getting casual work had he been a tall, thin,blond DD. There is a lot of inequality in the work place and it goes both ways. Many women want men in traditional women's jobs but how many would marry one? I know an excellent male reception teacher, he loves it but he doesn't tend to tell strangers what he does. There is a lot of prejudice and it doesn't all come fom men.

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:16

I am just pleased that DH didn't -wasab-had I questioned it he might of changed his mind!

jifnotcif · 22/04/2012 19:22

I do love this thread, it covers so many sore points. I found it absurd when I ventured back out into the world of work I found myself looking after children as job.

scottishmummy · 22/04/2012 19:24

i couldnt have had relationship and dc with a man who would have expected me to be housewife. certainly we discussed it early on years before dc, met at uni and had all the student plans/hopes and was quite clear both career minded

when planning to have dc we loosely looked at nurseries online
we started viewing nurseries at 8week pg and place booked at 12wk pg.nursery had a huge waiting list

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:25

I wonder how many women who have the sort of job where they have to have a nanny ,and spend a lot of time saying that child care isn't just women's work, would put their money where their mouth is and employ a male nanny if he came with excellent training and references? Not many is my guess and then probably for older children and not babies.

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:27

Probably why I was happy not to venture back,jifnotcif, there din't seem much point in getting someone to look after mine so that I could wrk with other people's!

scottishmummy · 22/04/2012 19:33

theres a male nanny posts mn hes well thought of cant recall the name
has had plenty booking from what he writes

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:46

And also plenty of MN who wouldn't have him. I get annoyed by the sheer hypocrisy of it all. There was recently a thread 'why would a man want to be a gynecologist' as if this was odd. There are many women who don't want male midwives. It seems they want it all on their terms.

scottishmummy · 22/04/2012 19:48

i agree with you.
some people moan childcare is women's work but would be reluctant to employ a male

exoticfruits · 22/04/2012 19:49

There is a lot of 'why are women stuck with traditional female jobs'- followed by I don't want a man doing it!