Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

Xenia, about your high salary.It may not have been up to a million. That is not what you said in years gone by.
And now you are plain lying. Else you lied before.
Night time breast feeding . Give me a break. I can give you the ages of your youngest and they are no way near breastfeeding.
STOP MISLEADING.

I admire Xenia -she is obviouly a success-loves her job-earns the money and thinks she has the balance right. It is right for her. What irks me is that she fails to see that it isn't right for everyone and that you can be intelligent enough to have her job, if you wanted it, but that you prefer to work part time, you love looking after your own DCs and you wouldn't buy an island if you had the money!

amillionyears - so how do you know that she didn't breastfeed her children at night when they were young? What a stupid thing to say.

The thing is people fail to understand is that you don't need to earn millions in order to be able to sustain two fulltime careers - my husband and I do it. Paying for childcare is painful, but an investment into our family's future. In the short term we'd be better of if one of us gave up working, but the long term loss would be much worse.

I went back to work after 39 works both times. I breastfed my first child until she was 18 months old and guess it will be at least as long with number 2. It's a huge drain physically, but it's possible, even being out of the house 8 while 6.

She may be unique in terms of her earning power, but achieving a happy family life whilst maintaining an enjoyable career should not be thought of us unusual for a woman, but become the norm. Calling it unusual is what is holding women back from going for it.

That isn't what I said WidowWadman,you have a habit of picking up my statements about really extreme career women and applying it to the normal juggling act that most parents do.

Xenia's a bit like Katie Price really, works hard, doesn't spend much time with her kids, earns loadsamoney and likes a bit of bling.

Yes she did breastfeed, X number of years ago. Trouble is for Xenia, her DH is not around much anymore.
Im not sure what to do now, as I know loads about her.The irony is Xenia can advise me.And I think maybe she should. I did ask her if she wanted to pm me.

amillion, oh I definitely k now I'm unusual. I've often said the average IQ is 100. I know what most people earn. However there are women out there who need to be encouraged and need to know they can work hard and do well and have families.

If someone is saying I am lying though that's not likely to be true. I don't think I tend to. Something about breastfeeding? I certainly have never said I breastfeed my enormous 13 year olds.,.laughing as I type. I did of course. Superwomen breastfeed twins and earn a fortune so of course I breastfed well..... but that was when they were that age.

Tell me what people say isn't true and I will correct it. I write a lot but it ought to be consistent as it's true.

I am not the issue. The issue is that time and time again women make stupid career choices and it is they not their husbands who stay home and earn a pittance and this has massive implciations for their careers and more generally for other women. It is replicated from the Tesco shop floor up to board rooms - women don't rise because they opt themselves out on a mommy track because propagand suggests they will be happier that way. they often aren't happier but they've been peddled the myth.

Most adults genuinely are better parents if they are with their children say 3 hours a day in the week. It's nothing new. All parents have always sought that. The Victorians whether they worked or not if they were rich enough had a nanny. The Romans had slaves. It's common sense - housework and childcare day in day out is terribly boring so you only end up doing it if you're fit for nothing else or have been conned by a sexist husband or family that women must stay at home. Lift the scales from your eyes and seek the better path.

I did say zealot, didn't I? Not that I disagree, but not many women can earn enough to afford childcare. A proportion of the women who could earn enough may prefer to stay at home. So that's how women get forced out of the work place and end up earning less than men. Economic inequality leads to domestic inequality IME.

Working at Tesco is far more boring than looking after house and home, surely?

Thank you. A much better post.
"I dont think I tend to lie" means you do sometimes.
And you mislead. Read your own posts
And I realise your power with words is greater than mine.
I wouldnt agree with you on the 3 hours a day. Mine certainly needed longer than that.Maybe your children were superchildren too.That is possible.But again, and this is the most important bit, do you know that saying things like "so you only end up doing it if you're fit for nothing else" is terribly offensive to some people.I really so hope you are able to see that. Please please please say you can see that.

Working for Tesco in any capacity-even on the board is far more boring than home!

Exotic - how you do you know what working on the board of tesco is like?

imo equality at home is both parents work.both contribute

the female demonstrating mum works,being good role model and able to talk about work and career to children.i think if female stays home and enacts mum does domestic stuff and not employed,and the adult male works then that just perpetuates gender stereotypes

and i imagine some will say they discuss and debunk gender stereotyping with their children encouraging them to not be open and amenable to range of experience. yes sounds v worthy, but if youre a housewife youre demonstrating a v gender specific and stereotyped role= mums work is domesticity and home

Thankfully we have moved on from Roman times, or even Victorians where children were closer to their nanny than their mother.

amillionyears - you seem to have this personal thing about Xenia. Might it be time (in the kindest possible way) to step away from the PC?

I wouldn't have anything to do with Tesco- the way they treat 16yr old Chriistmas workers is appalling so unless I could really shake them up,which I doubt, I would be bored.

i use tesco for online groceries and kids clothes
competitive pricing
i know a few earnest hand wringers who hate tesco and are happy to pay over the odds to shop elsewhere.

WidowWadman

"The housework has to be done by someone, and if both work it should be shared easily. I find it mindboggling that equal sharing of housework supports the idea that it;s woman's work?"

You seem to have missed my point. I probably wasnt clear as I was posting in a rush, so my apologies, I'll try and explain what I mean properly, if I may?

Cleaning and caring as professions have long since been deemed a woman's world. I'm sure there are statistics about the gender divide for cleaners and carers but I'm afraid I still don't have masses of time so can't hunt them out. I'm sure if you think of 10 people you know of who work as a cleaner or in a care home though, at least 9 of them would be women. I spent nearly 10 years working in various care homes and in all that time, amongst perhaps 100 colleagues from various homes and shifts, I worked with 6 men who were actually carers, not managers. Smilarly I have come across one man working in childcare or early years education in the 13 years that I have had kids, so been in a position to notice.

With that in mind, I assume it is safe to say that while we are all out doing our 40/60/80 hour weeks and outsourcing our cleaning and childcare to someone else, that that someone else will most likely be a woman. The odds are certainly in favour of it being a female cleaner, a female nanny or female nursery worker.

To my mind, that is what will reinforce the idea that cleaning and caring is women's work, because it is (for the most part) only women who will be seen to be doing it. Of course both parties in a relationship doing a proportional amount is the ideal, but one only has to look at AIBU or Relationships here to see that for many men, that is an unrealistic expectation regardless of how many hours each works. I don't think that a woman increasing her work hours is going to change that attitude.

I do think that raising the value of that work, making it something to be viewed with pride rather than shame, is the way to promote equality in the home. If a job is viewed with scorn, who in their right mind would want to do it? If it is viewed with scorn & as women's work, that is like handing feckless men a get out of jail free card for never having to pick up another dirty sock again.

Hopefullyrecovering, I am feeling fine thanks. Not sure if you are asking about me or Xenia. As far as I can tell Xenia is fine too.I'm sure Xenia will tell me if she is not. At least I hope she would tell me. She is one of the toughest cookies I have ever come across.

i have female cleaner, its income generating for her.circulates money
means we have more time not soing chores at weekend and evenings
everyone wins

exoticfruits your suggestion that children aren't as close to their fulltime working mothers as they are to their daytime childcarers is wrong and insulting.

FWIW, I know my children love their nursery nurses and enjoy going there immensely. But they know exactly who their mother and their father is, and we're in the number one spot in their hearts.

You maybe think you only talk about high powered career women, but as parent who is spending 50 hours per week away from her children, the same as my husband, your comments are very much about me or any other parent like me too.

The repeat references to Xenia's marriage having ended, are a bit poor too.

I don't hvae a feminist issue around the fact some jobs are low paid and boring and anyone can do them and thus they are unpaid or low paid and others aren't. it's just how things are and always will be.

Let's turn this sentence around as to its gender to get at the sexism in some people views:

"I did say zealot, didn't I? Not that I disagree, but not many men can earn enough to afford childcare. A proportion of the men who could earn enough may prefer to stay at home. So that's how men get forced out of the work place and end up earning less than women. Economic inequality leads to domestic inequality IME."

The problem is that women marry up, their man earns more, they want a man who is a good provider, therefore if one has to give up work it will be muggins mum, not higher earner daddy on his lofty £25k a year.

(Where have I mislead? I don't mind people saying they disagree with my views but I don't go around making things up)

Excellent point brilliantly put wadman - this is as much about work ethic as it is about housework. Xenia wants us all to live under the Victorian model, the upstairs downstairs way of dealing with domestic work - we're getting there, and all those childcare vouchers and the substandard nursery care that goes with it are pushing us further in that direction.

piousprat nope, you're missing the point by insisting on that fantasy that anyone in a double-fulltime-worker family set up employs a cleaner. I don't and rather spend the money on something else.

You'll probably be pleased to hear that there are men working in my children's nursery.

Sorry I was talking to Pious there, not Widow. Brilliantly put Pious. Not Widow. Widow bad, Pious good.