Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

The Op asked a question. She framed it within her personal experience. There were ways that we could have explored it without making the Op feel stupid.

That isn't about performing gender. That's not being rude and I don't buy the straight-talking argument. There are lots of regulars on this board who manage to make excellent posts without belittling people. Sakura regularly gets treated like shit for her opinions but she never gets rude in response and she doesn't play the preformative gender game. Scaring away the Op is hardly a feminist act. Women's voices are shut down by men so frequently. It's distressing to see the same thing happen on this board by other women.

AF if you want to get into that game, I'll also call you on the not making accusations, but still implying it you did on your post which I deliberately ignored as I didn't want to get into it. Deliberate discredit by association - appealing to paranoia and fear based on a previous event which in this case is groundless in its suggestion. You are playing a card, if you are putting a post like that one.

I'm pretty sick of people saying that people are trying to silence feminists, and yet seeing stuff like this at the same time by the same people. I want an open debate, and an open debate relies on it being made clear when one is using underhand tricks rather than relying on the merits and content of the actual debate.

The debate is only still here because people challenged what was said and have pointed out whats happening.

Anyway referring back to the OP, I'd like those who were very critical of the DH to answer what a man put in a position, where a woman is trying to manipulate a situation with her sexuality, should do? Should he make others aware its happening to try and stop it? (Which could include having a moan to his wife) Should he indulge it by simply ignoring it as otherwise he's seeing them in a sexist way? Should just shut up and not say anything to anyone? Should he be going around having a go at male colleagues over it? Is he really actively supporting the patriarchy in this situation?

From where I'm sitting, I actually don't know what a man should do in that situation given what was said by some posters. I think that what some people were doing was very much nitpicking and having a go for the sake of having ago, rather than looking at the problem properly. However he handled it was going to be wrong in their eyes. And I think its important to actually discuss that as much as any other aspect of this topic.

The women I know who said they would do it, were highly intelligent and saw it as a strength they could use on men, they saw as weak. Their attitude at the time really shocked and quite upset me, that they didn't want to just use their talent and if it was something that could give them an edge they would use it, in the same way they would use anything else that would give them an edge. It certainly wasn't about playing up to a particular attitude in a particular office - so what the OP's bloke did and whether he addressed or didn't address his male colleagues really aren't the problem.

It is about a wider perception and also stereotype of men just as much as a problem with a patriarchal system. Its a symbiotic relationship and attitude. Its not exclusively being caused by men and we shouldn't just be focusing on that. Stereotypes come from somewhere. And peddling the patriarchal system as being to blame, is spewing the same old shit, just from a different direction. Until you start trying to break those stereotypes - both in women and men you support it, even where it doesn't exist. The fact that the OP's DH didn't like the behaviour and it pissed him off, is a sign that actually there are men who don't pander to the old patriarchy system and perhaps it isn't as widespread and in every company and every walk of life that some people insist it is.

To stop it happening, it requires a cooperation between men and women to encourage talent without the need to resorting to the use of sexual manipulation. You can't heap the responsibility all on to men when you are doing your best to reinforce it too.

That might mean trying to get men to view it with a dim eye and encourage other talents - which it seems the OP DH actually did do. And yes it might mean challenging male staff too as part of the process. But I certainly don't think that the guy deserved 'labels' as he did do something that wasn't supporting the problem. It was both grossly unfair and its about another agenda of creating this ideology of men are the enemy.

Ultimately, I do feel that unless you give men a reasonable options and encouragement where they can constructively contribute to this rather than being critical of everything, all you are doing is kicking them and not helping the situation either.

spot on, BC

Nyac, the sacking reference was Dustinthewind, and to me it read as sarcasm (Dustinthewind Sun 01-Apr-12 14:59:51). I think she was trying to show an alternative course of action that the OP's hubby could have taken to drop said women in the shit. As it was, he took supportive action.

There have been several women on this thread who have said they have seen similar 'breathy' behaviour from women in the workplace as the OP's husband, so I think it's safe to say it does happen. Yet because he is a communicative husband and discusses workplace issues with her, he is somehow a grass 'running home telling tales'. This smacks of being one rule for men and another for women, which is sexist.

hmm - did you see my post challenging the idea that it did equate to sexuality and looking at how instead the sexuality might be in the eye of the beholder rather than in the woman's behaviour? i talked about how if a woman regresses, potentially through lack of confidence about being assertive and making a demand for time/attention, to childlikeness that equates to 'girlishness' and it is the beholder who translates girlishness into something sexual in a way that 'boyishness' ie. a man regressing would not be perceived.

i thought it was quite key to this. you're assuming this is something sexual the women are doing but actually we only know that it was interpreted that way.

how come girlishness is seen as sexual and boyishness is not? worth answering that to yourself imo.

Anyway referring back to the OP, I'd like those who were very critical of the DH to answer what a man put in a position, where a woman is trying to manipulate a situation with her sexuality, should do? Should he make others aware its happening to try and stop it? (Which could include having a moan to his wife) Should he indulge it by simply ignoring it as otherwise he's seeing them in a sexist way? Should just shut up and not say anything to anyone? Should he be going around having a go at male colleagues over it? Is he really actively supporting the patriarchy in this situation?

I once asked my DH this question. I know that in his work, young women in particular will flirt with him cos he is in charge of them and can make a difference to their careers and they have been taught from birth that this is how they should interact with men.

He sat and thought about it for a while and then said 'reflect on my own unearned privilege and try not to be a dick'.

sanjeev i think it would be disingenuous to pretend that a man coming home and telling his wife about all the women who go all breathless and helpless around him doesn't at least raise an eyebrow in the mind.

if i said now oh all the men at x go all breathless and helpless around me what would you think realistically?

I often use analogies about racism to explain a point about feminism and why we sometimes react the way we do to stuff.

I think comparisons between divisive behaviour - as in NI are equally applicable. It creates more problems than it solves. Solving problems is about cooperation and bridge building to understand the other group. Its not about perpetuating myths and stereotypes. Its not about demonising someone into submission of your point of view. You can not win hearts and minds in that way and if you don't understand that, you will have a very real problem in changing society and causing revolutionary change.

propaganda are akin to accusing people of being trolls
No its not. Its pointing out that there is very much a political thing going on here, and the use of propaganda is very widespread in order to get a certain message across. Its used in mainstream politics and debate. Having a good understanding of how it works and how it is being used here helps people who are struggling to get across a point in the face of such tactics to have a chance to actually be able to express their views on an equal playing field.

People are very free to go and look at the link I put and judge for themselves if the cap fits and whether it will help them.

I'm just calling what I see. And that is what I am seeing.

Folks, this is the internet. It's a two dimensional means of communication. We only see what's on the screen. We might know a bit about individual posters if they have stuff in their profiles or if we remember things they've posted before. But, that's it, no inflection, no expressions, no tone of voice, no gestures, no chance to genuinely check out whether we've been understood correctly, or if we've misunderstood someone else.

So some here feel others have been too harsh and personal in their responses to the OP based on the anecdote she chose to introduce the discussion. Others think that on a feminist board, members have the right to call out where they see examples of entitled, sexist attitudes or behaviour in whatever way they choose. It's also worth remembering that one doesn't have to intend to hurt, undermine or marginalise another person for them to feel that's what's happening. None of us know what's going on for the person on the other side of the screen. Sometimes, I think we need to cut each other a bit of slack. I mean that all ways round.

And sort of linked to that, Beachcomber, there was a comment you added up thread, "We try to throw off the notion that women should always be nicey nicey and caring and concerned about everyone and everything." I see where that comes from - recognising the expectation within patriarchy of how women are supposed to engage with others and actively refusing to comply with that expectation.

However, there's also the argument that being forthright, blunt and harsh is actually "using the master's tools," (to badly paraphrase Audre Lorde,) rather than forging a way of communicating that is clear and direct but not likely to be experienced as dismissive or patronising.

I much prefer the latter myself.

the easy response is to say 'it is absolutely FINE to ask me for help, you don't have to worry about it just tell me what your problem is and i will work through it with you and teach you how to deal with it in future'. i'm sure they would then approach asking him for help far more directly and confidently. if however he responds with irritation then this will exacerbate the problem imo as they will be more anxious about asking for help and therefore display yet more apologetic behaviour/submissive signals next time.

this behaviour does not have to be sexual or in any way about sex - it may be womens equivalent to over using the word "mate" when having to complain about something to the mechanic all we know.

is that just me who has noticed that by the way? whereas women might get girly and roll on their tummy that way men do the stunningly obvious (from an 'outsiders' perspective) matey use of the word 'mate' five times per sentence for the same effect.

overuse of the word "mate" in that context is ingratiating and submissive too, I think

my DH often says when faced with similar "he isn't my mate, so what is he on about ? "

The thing to be pissed off with when women use their 'feminine wiles' to get along is patriarchy.

SAF - i work in a technical role & see it a bit differently than you: i see men 'having' to pretend they know what they are talking about when they clearly dont. Particularly talking with me, a women.

they appear to believe they need to be more masculine than they are (bearing in mind their 'masculine strength' is understanding techology.

i just want people at work to be honest about what they know and dont know. anyone else is a PITA.

And to not misrepresent my DH, he didn't come and tell me about these women. I go to his office sometimes because I do translation work for his company and I have seen it happen.

Something else we talked about is how DH's boss, the company owner, sort of likes having young pretty things around the office, as do some of the clients (who are mostly male) - we reckoned that was probably where the behaviour came from.

HmmThinkingAbout I've looked at your propaganda link and TBH I find it very rude that you are comparing women chewing the feminist fat on a discussion board and giving their personal opinions to propaganda.

I'm not too clear on why you are doing that? Is it just a way of personally attacking by link in the way we had someone personally attack by quote the other day?

Propaganda is a political tool used to manipulate and control people in an organised and cynical way. Quite an accusation to make

beach young women in particular will flirt with (your DH) cos he is in charge of them and can make a difference to their careers and they have been taught from birth that this is how they should interact with men.

and you see these multiple young women doing this with your DH? are you sure because that sounds very odd.

Well he's been in the same job for about 12 years and all that time I have done freelance stuff for the company. I also do interpretation for them when they invite clients to the agency for drinkies and buttering up, so I'm there a fair bit.

He is one of two men in a company where all the other members of staff are women. They often have students come and do projects and stuff with them so there are quite a lot of young women who come and go (female dominated area).

I have seen women act in a feminine way with both DH and his boss (the only men in the company and the people who have the most power in the company, despite it being a female dominated area). I don't think for a second it is because my DH is an irresistible specimen of gawjus manhood, and neither does he. We think it is because women are taught to behave like this, especially around men who can influence their careers. Some do it, some don't. Lots don't but enough do that I suggested DH talk to his boss about what sort of atmosphere is created in the company for the women.

That's certainly similar to my experience working in a male dominated industry as a young woman Beachcomber.

Yes, that's about entrenched, institutionalised sexism within the culture of many work places and professions. Although there may be official policies and procedures, employees get their cues on how to behave from others, observing and learning about "how things are done." Although that sort of things isn't just down to managers, they have a really critical role to play in setting the "tone" of a workplace or team, and in addressing behaviour that is sexist (or marginalises people for other reasons, like bullying, racism, etc.)

Any experiences of tackling the "status quo" and changing it? I can think of someone I know in a professional capacity who works for a local authority. Her predecessor was an incompetent pillock in general and a sexist pillock specifically. She's having to sort out a godawful mess left behind by him, but even though it's bloody hard work for her team doing that, you can almost feel the sense of relief that they now feel free to be themselves, to do what they are capable of and know needs to be done rather than doing "what the boss expects."

I think there was a pretty cynical attempt to do exactly that on this thread Beachcomber. Very sadly.

I don't think its rude to point it out and to point out that politics and propaganda do not exist separately. Ever.

Feminism is political.

SAF, it's interesting that the slant put on this has all been 'he comes home and tells me all this stuff', as though telling tales. What the OP said is that she has been doing a lot of reading herself, and then talking with hubby. Which, one could take as meaning she has read feminist literature, then instigated a conversation with him about her findings. Perhaps he then responded to a particular subject she had raised.

We don't know this for sure. But it is a possibility. However, it seems more popular here to come down on the side of him somehow being at fault.

The idea of men acting similarly childish and putting on a small boy's voice is something I have never encountered. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I can far more readily picture a man ploughing blindly on through a task until he ends up in a complete muddle, and then losing his rag and blaming the system/tool/dog. That happens in our place a lot. The older guys also play the 'I'm too old to learn this IT crap' card all the time too, and have few qualms about asking for help with the same task over and over again. They show no shame

when men use the word mate five times on a row, no-one accuses them of using their sexuality, or their special male bonding resource, to get ahead. they just think they're being people

Basil said 'when men use the word mate five times on a row, no-one accuses them of using their sexuality, or their special male bonding resource, to get ahead. they just think they're being people'.

Agreed But if they changed their voice to sound like Jimmy Krankie when saying it, they would be mocked mercilessly (at least where I work).

wee Jimmy Krankie is a woman < couldn't resist >