Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

I have to go out - it's foul out there! Thanks, everyone, for today's posts and giving me an ear. I'll catch up later.

I get what you're saying, Nyac, but I perceive this as symptomatic in that women need to take more responsibility for changing stuff. I don't care whether some geezer wants to pitch women against women - that's hardly new. Though I would have liked him to get a more tolerant response before being slapped with assumptions.

Well it seems to me that people on this thread seem to expect a man to be sexist about women and that's allowed. So much so that it barely registers in some people's radar and for others they just don't care.

All a bit despairing and sad really.

Excellent post Nyac.

We're taking responsibility for changing stuff, garlic. We're telling this guy that his attitude sucks.

Sorry I misunderstood, Garlic.

I do agree that assertiveness training can be beneficial, but it's important for people (not you, necessarily) to remember that rape doesn't happen as a result of a lack of assertiveness. I know at least two of the people who sexually assaulted me did so, despite thinking I was a strong, assertive woman. Rape literally takes what is left of someone's assertiveness and drags it through the mud. Might not be the case with everyone, but it definitely happened with me.

But assertiveness training can help in terms of helping survivors feel they can regain a little control, if that makes sense? The more assertive I am, the more in control I feel. (Usually)

Sorry, have gone off completely at a tangent here...

this is a section in mn about feminism
not feminist board
there was considerable consternation about this, few high expressed emotion flouncers. some asserted it should be safe space.
but mnhq did categorically state it's a subject topic,open to all,no topic off limits.
so you see one can discuss any aspect of feminism one wants, one can challenge,and expect to be challenged

Excellent post at 16:56, Nyac!

:)

And Abigail, I agree. It seems a very passive attitude..

what is that harping sound i hear?

Sexist men don't deserve tolerance whilst women are criticised for their behaviour in the face of sexism. That's completely the wrong way round.

thinks it's the chip slipped off someone shoulder
or chains of hegemony jangling in wind

sexism regardless of gender of perpetrator is unacceptable
cannot excuse sexism with battery of yeah but,no but,he made her do it

You're on form today, sm.

Nyac, what is your answer to my saying my teeth clench when I witness a woman doing babygirl in the workplace (repair shop, builder center, etc)? I've bee trying to work through my exact thoughts around it on here. Am I unwittingly sexist because I dislike sexist manipulation even when done by women?

This part, I don't get!

Try looking for the men around her who reward that kind of behaviour GB. Stay focused on the real problem. With regards to those women who are setting your teeth on edge, I think you should try and be a bit more tolerant.

The more assertive I am, the more in control I feel. - YY, Trophy! It gives you more control, too (for example, over the quality of assistance you get from the IT guy ... )

Sanjeev, I nearly ordered that book - I'll get it now, thanks. I'm not sure whether or not it's ironic that 'clever' working practices are inherently more family friendly and more "women's style" if there is such a thing. But it looks like a happy coincidence to me :)

no it was a familiar harping back to the past. hadn't heard it for a while and there it was again.

hadn't heard what in a while?

But the poster isn't rewarding it ...?

I have written why it does that to my teeth and have tried to differentiate between traumatised behaviour and unthinking sexism on the part of game-playing women. I must have explained unclearly. Please can you show me why you conclude Neander feels contempt for women and not just the behaviour?

I'm not excusing him, because it's not obvious to me what his attitude is.

It won't neccessarily be the poster rewarding it, but someone is. Else it wouldn't continue.

May we paraphrase the original question as "Why do some women do this babygirl thing?"

You're saying, iiuc, "Because it gets them what they want" and "men reward women who act like dipsticks, because that reinforces the male power position."

I wouldn't disagree. But I would add the women don't need to do it. I feel they'd be better advised to ask properly for what they want. Because that reinforces the female power equality.

As a strategy, the babygirl act sucks. It makes the actress look like a dipstick and reinforces the male power position by voluntarily adopting a powerless stance (for and on behalf of women, which makes my teeth clench). It will fail to get better results than asking like a grown-up. It's just useless.

As to why she does it - I fear it's because she has sexist assumptions about what men respond to in a woman. She will have learned this sexism from her patriarchal environment, but it's not the only model in front of her. I don't for one second believe "she's just being a woman"; she's being a manipulative woman, operating on incorrect information. I would like to see her behaviour challenged. I do not think there, there, poor ickle girl doesn't know any better. She does know better! And should be encouraged to drop this unhelpful and damaging act.

spot on,some male/female chose sexist stereotypical typical behaviors
as a behavioral mode,as a way to react,respond and engage
we have all experienced the social chameleon who reverts to sexist behaviour

Of course this is all assuming that these women actually behaved like this and the OP's husband isn't lying or perhaps being more generous, having a sexist perception of these conversations.

Garlic if you want to blame and ridicule numbers of women carry on. But don't do it in the name of feminism. Because it isn't.

that's online deal,can't corroborate or substantiate anything so op may be true/false/embellished. we simply don't know. that's why it's really words on a screen

See I think we have seen an element of the sisterhood in action on this thread.

Where some of us refused to get into a discussion bashing other women for supposedly failing to do their bit for the sisterhood.

Small thing but that is what it's all about.

It's hard to believe you've never seen a woman suddenly change to babygirl for an interaction with a man. You may have seen a man suddenly change to bigman for an interaction with a woman. They are both fulfilling sexist stereotypes, quite overtly and selectively. I dislike it. It offends my feminist sensibilities, which tell me people are people first and power cannot be fairly distributed by gender.

Do you genuinely feel sexist behaviour should be defended by feminists?

power cannot be fairly distributed by gender - very badly written. I'm too tired to think of words I should have used ... it's wrong for people to adopt power positions according to gender. Something like that.